From: dc-cycles-digest-request@XXXXXX (The dc-cycles list administrator) To: dc-cycles@XXXXXX Subject: dc-cycles digest for 10/15/08 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ __ /-----\ __ 'dc-cycles' is an unmoderated email discussion list (__\/ _____ \/__) about motorcycling in the Washington D.C. area. =( \___/ )= \ ___ / An archive of the dc-cycles list is available at: | / _ \ | http://www.dc-cycles.org/ \ || || / \|| ||/ Subscribe/unsubscribe requests should be sent to: \| |/ dc-cycles-digest-request@XXXXXX |_| ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 23:12:26 -0400 From: "Danny Motorcycle" To: "Dave Yates" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.9 Cc: B-DC cycles Subject: Re: [dc-cycles] Mindsets Motorcyclist killed in Howard County I'm just doing some long winded ranting so most of you should just click past it now lol On Tue, Oct 14, 2008 at 8:29 AM, Dave Yates wrote: > DM: > > I disagree. I'ts not shitty that his friends left him. I think it's fair > and I feel confident in saying, that they probably would have wanted to go > back, but the risks of doing so would be too great. > > [Dave] Sometimes you just have to hike up the skirt and accept > responsibility as a citizen and render aid that you can to a dying person. Are the circumstances where one should be a good citizen and risk one's own life to do the right thing. Yes. Absolutely. Are all circumstances of someone dying some how magically more important than everything we know? Negative. I have compassion for innocent people being victims. What I also have is a priority system, and my family and myself, come first, before anyone who voluntarily engages in an activity to risk one's own life and safety. If an old lady gets shot in a bank robbery, I'll be a good citizen and do what I can. If two street criminal thugs are in a shoot out, I"m not going to go run over to the worse one at the risk of being shot by the shooter. My priority is to be around to compete my job as a father. Kind of like the saying your failure to plan doesn't constitute an emergency for me. If some jackass straps a bomb on himself, then shoots himself in teh stomach and yells "come help me iv'e been shot".. Forgive me but i'm not going to assume that risk.. I can't think of anyone I know, that I'd go try to save under that circumstance. > Death/abandonment probably are some of the risks they knowingly assume, > and they know that going back probably wont' be productive, but instead > could put one away for 20 years. (racing/manslaughter charges regardless if > they weren't actually racing). > > [Dave] It's one thing to leave the scene of a traffic stop when you know > the rider is alright, and perhaps even a crash scene that you've rendered > aid to a downed rider you know is ok. However, leaving a rider you KNOW to > be injured and very seriously at that is just the height of despicable. What if two guys went for a ride at 180 mph on the street and they both agreed that if something like this should happen, the other person should keep going? would it still be despicable? Or what if they each knew the other would leave them, so when it came time, it happened. Would you try to rescue someone at risk of 20 years of you future for someone who wouldn't do it for you? I know I wouldn't. Is that despicable? Or you shoot an intruder in your house.. is the moral thing to render him aid, or would I be wrong for not rendering aid? because I wouldn't raise a finger to help. Kind of contradictory being that I would be the one put him in that state. My point is life is sacred, but not all life is sacred to risk throwing your life away. As far as the bike accident, if you think about it, people stopped for the other rider and "saved him" because they could. SO they only left behind the one it was too late for. Probably like being in a war zone under heavy fire. Sometimes you just have to abandon wha'ts futile. Sticking around = put you at the scene of a crime, witnesses can testify > you were there. > > [Dave] Eyewitness testimony isn't rock solid. Pressed, the cagers won't > know a Suzuki (except for the eyeabuser, nobody can forget the optical > scarring that thing generates) from a subaru. > Well I was talking about "going back" and presumably by that time a cop might be there, which is often the case, and the cop can apprehend you. It kind of turns out this discussion was for naught, people were **assuming** he was alive and left for dead, and it's turned out to not be the case. > Leaving, gives one possible plausible deniability, no witness. The bike > could have been stolen or loaned out. > > [Dave] Your compassion for your fellow citizen & rider is indeed touching. > :-/ ha. Being a fellow citizen and rider doesn't automatically gain my compassion. You can be both, and still be someone who doesn't deserve compassion. There are all kinds of people who meet tht description but they probably deserve a good beating. I can think of a few. but I was discussing legal possibilities for someone who probably IMO shoudln't have their life ruined. Hell we have a 5th amendment. The rider is already deceased, why should one incriminate themselves? Why do we have a 5th amendment? Did the forefathers like crime? criminals? > > It would be the prosecutions job to prove who it was riding it, and a > defense lawyers job to say "the state still didn't prove it was my client". > > [Dave] Mandatory helmets in MD, an ID that positive would take some work. > Not impossible to secure a conviction, but difficult. Hell, they would be > hard pressed to be able to substantiate charging the riders had they > stopped. > > Still, that's something you concern yourself with AFTER you render aid to > the downed rider. > I'm not saying all downed riders should be abandoned.. that would be ridiculous.. however if a pack of guys decide to go and do 180 MPH and they witness one go off into the trees.. I think it's safe to go with the mindset of "you knew what we were gettign into, and that the pack wouldn't stop for you under deadly circumstances" So if you dont' like those terms, don't engage in the activity. Now if there were no risks of going to jail for 20 years for racing/manslaughter, then yea it would be pretty messed up. But as I see it, it's assumed risk when one rides like that. Despite packs going out, and riding with that mindset, it's not unusual for them to stop anyway, and do what they can before they leave. It's probably why Police see a lot of the "hop on the back" get aways. I'm confident that if this rider appeared to be savable, they would have tried. After all, they did stop and pick up the other injured rider. So I guess i'm just trying to say that it's a case by case basis, and always trying to help out someone, isn't always the right thing to do. Like giving money to bums who likely have drug addictions. Does that make me less compassionate for "not helping" but doing what I believe is best? Besides I already have a child i'm responsible for, and all of his needs are yet to be met, so I'm not interested in supporting someone else's child who's an adult and should be providing for themselves. If Ididn't start you on your drug habit, I dont' owe it to you to help your ruined life that you put in motion. Am I less than compassionate? Yep, because my compassion coincides with my duty of what's right, and who i'm responsible for, and it goes hand in hand with that priority. :) So call imply i'm not compassionate to your hearts content :) _______________________________________________ dc-cycles mailing list dc-cycles@XXXXXX http://dc-cycles.org/mailman/cgi-bin/listinfo/dc-cycles _ _ _ _ .-.-.=\-. .-.-.=\-. .-.-.=\-. .-.-.=\-. (_)=='(_) (_)=='(_) (_)=='(_) (_)=='(_) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 08:32:35 -0400 From: "Thomas Jordan" Cc: "B-DC cycles" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.9 Subject: Re: [dc-cycles] Mindsets Motorcyclist killed in Howard County Ummmm, Danny, WTF? Are you familiar with the 5th amendment? Here's an excerpt: "[No person] shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself" If you don't say anything at all to police, they will be hard-pressed to come up with ANYTHING to charge you with. Even if they do, the burden of proof is on the prosecuting attorney to make their case. In short, keep your mouth shut. Don't self-incriminate, and you won't have a problem. On Tue, Oct 14, 2008 at 11:12 PM, Danny Motorcycle wrote: > > but I was discussing legal possibilities for someone who probably IMO > shoudln't have their > life ruined. Hell we have a 5th amendment. The rider is already deceased, > why should > one incriminate themselves? Why do we have a 5th amendment? Did the > forefathers > like crime? criminals? _______________________________________________ dc-cycles mailing list dc-cycles@XXXXXX http://dc-cycles.org/mailman/cgi-bin/listinfo/dc-cycles _ _ _ _ .-.-.=\-. .-.-.=\-. .-.-.=\-. .-.-.=\-. (_)=='(_) (_)=='(_) (_)=='(_) (_)=='(_) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 14:30:26 -0400 From: "Danny Motorcycle" To: "Thomas Jordan" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.9 Cc: B-DC cycles Subject: Re: [dc-cycles] Mindsets Motorcyclist killed in Howard County I of course know that. However... to the discussion.. if your'e a district attorney, and you've got witneses (cagers) who say it appears you were racing because you were speeding past them... and you've got a cop who arrests you on the scene for racing.. You could be charged with something like manslaughter.. I could be wrong, but I think the law generally states if two parties race on public roads and one dies, the other can be charged with manslaughter. no? Kind of easy for the prosecutor to put you at the scene and prove you were there when the cops actually arrest you at the scene. Get some cagers admonishingly being a witnesses to the jury saying how awful it was, and how fast they flew by and how scary it was, and that you must have been racing at those speeds.. etc etc... Sometimes the courts have verdicts based on the pictures lawyers paint, vs the truth that isn't or can't be told. Not to mention the legal fees.. the stress.. etc And lord forbid you should find out that your buddy's wreck caused a person in a car to die, because then someone will demand justice for you. I"m not saying people should go out, ride fast and leave the scene.. but I am saying if your'e going to do it, and you're not at fault, you should be thinking about covering your ass right about then, as best as possible, if it can in anyway be inferred that you were racing even though you werent'. and IMO the best way is to not make it easy for them and stick around (which is assuming your presence there couldn't aid anyone). I'm just talking theory here... of course one shoudlt' even participate in reckless riding, and all of the above are the reasons why. BTW there was a case in southern MD, a man was convicted for his buddy dying and them racing. He was sentenced to 10 or 20 years, and as far as I know, is still in jail. It's one thing when soeone causes an innocent non participant to have an accident, sure charge them. but a willing participant.. manslaughter.. while you're not even at fault? that's just a little bit to far for me to consider fair. _______________________________________________ dc-cycles mailing list dc-cycles@XXXXXX http://dc-cycles.org/mailman/cgi-bin/listinfo/dc-cycles _ _ _ _ .-.-.=\-. .-.-.=\-. .-.-.=\-. .-.-.=\-. (_)=='(_) (_)=='(_) (_)=='(_) (_)=='(_) X-rim-org-msg-ref-id: 439779353 To: "List DC Cycles" From: dcmcrider@XXXXXX Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:37:08 +0000 Subject: Re: [dc-cycles] Mindsets Motorcyclist killed in Howard County Danny wrote: "Sometimes the courts have verdicts based on the pictures lawyers paint, vs the truth that isn't or can't be told." ----- IANAL, but "sometimes"?? Try *always*. At the heart of the Anglo-American adversarial system lies the fact the courts have no independent fact-finding or investigative capabilities of their own. The courts are wholly dependent on weighing the facts as presented by the parties. Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T _______________________________________________ dc-cycles mailing list dc-cycles@XXXXXX http://dc-cycles.org/mailman/cgi-bin/listinfo/dc-cycles