From: dc-cycles-digest-request@XXXXXX (The dc-cycles list administrator) To: dc-cycles@XXXXXX Subject: dc-cycles digest for 10/11/08 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ __ /-----\ __ 'dc-cycles' is an unmoderated email discussion list (__\/ _____ \/__) about motorcycling in the Washington D.C. area. =( \___/ )= \ ___ / An archive of the dc-cycles list is available at: | / _ \ | http://www.dc-cycles.org/ \ || || / \|| ||/ Subscribe/unsubscribe requests should be sent to: \| |/ dc-cycles-digest-request@XXXXXX |_| ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.0 c=1 a=UBcgDMwP430A:10 a=YKkDzQqIH5UA:10 a=nnKl28XNcW_m8ymv7y0A:9 a=HVeyGCroGH-fWeuhyioA:7 a=LlRU_Vah6bauUrx0csYkG16MVEQA:4 a=MSl-tDqOz04A:10 a=4m5yE5Z4Ul0A:10 From: penguinbiker@XXXXXX To: dc-cycles@XXXXXX (B-DC cycles) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 12:17:00 +0000 X-Authenticated-Sender: cGVuZ3VpbmJpa2VyQGNvbWNhc3QubmV0 Subject: [dc-cycles] Take a belt to me (was) NHTSA to push for mandatory training for m/c license --===============1032283562== # -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: "Wayne Edelen" > > When you're in a race car, you're surrounded by a cage and bolted in > using a 5 or 6 pt harness that doesn't allow movement. Using similar belt systems with the street normal impact locking (or retracting) belt systems would allow for comfort without much loss of belt efficiency. > You're also > wearing a helmet rated for rollbar/cage impacts (and HANS). Totally > different environments. So require helmets in cars #;-) > OK that would be fun but… (wear your helmet in a car sometime, it really f&^ks with peoples head.) The environments are not all that different. Street cars do have roll cages in the door post/roof already, it should be better and could be for a relatively small cost. > The reason NASCAR or other racing > organizations don't use airbags is because they rely on the safety of > harnesses and no-compromise rollcages, Not to mention that airbags are one impact systems. One hit they inflate then _very_ quickly deflate. In racing the possibility of multiple impacts is _very_ high rendering bags nearly useless. Multiple impact street accidents is one reason that airbags are less then ideal and you still need to wear seat belts with the bags. As for the harness and roll cage I dealt with that in the first paragraph. > among other non-streetable > items, to protect the drivers. The point I am trying to make is that milder versions of these thing are _very_ streetable, safer and superior in every way to air bombs. > You can't compare a production car for the masses to a race car when > it comes to safety equipment. Of course you can, I did not and am not saying that street cars need NASCAR level harnesses and roll cages. What I am saying is that improvements in existing belt, seat, and door posts (part of the cars hidden roll cage) would be more effective then air bombs at a smaller cost. Supposedly one of the reasons manufacturers race is so racing technology, including safety technology, can trickle down to street cars. >You'll see why that equipment wouldn't be practical for a street car. Again I am not suggesting NASCAR level protection. Hell nothing will protect us from everything (Hear that safetycrats?) All I said was that improvement to existing systems would be as or more effective then air bags at a reduced cost but leave the decision to buckle up to us. God forbid. FYI I am not opposed to safety equipment, I wore seat belts before they were standard equipment in cars (I'm that old) and I wore helmets before the first helmet laws. I would continue to do both without the laws. But Airbags are dangerous having more to do with bureaucracy then real safety. -- John W. --===============1032283562== _______________________________________________ dc-cycles mailing list dc-cycles@XXXXXX http://dc-cycles.org/mailman/cgi-bin/listinfo/dc-cycles --===============1032283562==-- _ _ _ _ .-.-.=\-. .-.-.=\-. .-.-.=\-. .-.-.=\-. (_)=='(_) (_)=='(_) (_)=='(_) (_)=='(_) X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.0 c=1 a=rTO1I49FW00A:10 a=gVYFhBizLF0A:10 a=dC5x0cQFNzVPHGNATkYA:9 a=E-kfRXSksJEj1Oro6UEgfzeiPUoA:4 a=nu8u5PpaTKsA:10 a=si9q_4b84H0A:10 a=ogkLDI8no5YA:10 From: penguinbiker@XXXXXX To: dc-cycles@XXXXXX (B-DC cycles) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 12:26:49 +0000 X-Authenticated-Sender: cGVuZ3VpbmJpa2VyQGNvbWNhc3QubmV0 Subject: Re: [dc-cycles] NHTSA to push for mandatory training for m/c license --===============1988483261== # -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: "Mike B." omni@XXXXXX > PenguinBiker@XXXXXX wrote: > > > > But even old style seat belts will prevent all of those injuries, no need for > a bomb. > > the bus, which was sliding on locked wheels, > hit her broadside on the passenger door and knocked her across two lanes > of traffic > Despite wearing not only a seatbelt > but also a shoulder harness, she still managed to hit her forehead on > the windshield hard enough to break it. OK I should not have said “all of those injuries” My basic point is that other things can be _as_ or more effective as bags, not that they would protect against everything. > > Luckily, the pressure cut on her forehead was the only injury. So if you really look at it the belts worked just fine. She was hit by a BUS for gods sake and just bumped her head. That is what I call success. > BTW, the bus wasn't even slowed noticeably by the impact that threw the > car off the road >Really great demonstration of the effects of m in p=mv. OMG! Physics! And also why seat belts in school busses are unnecessary. > And for cars, perhaps ejection seats? Pointed down? > I thought this might be a great > solution until I considered two things: 1) in a head on crash, you would > likely still hit the ejecting occupants of the other car, and 2) crashes > in tunnels or under overpasses. Now _that_ creates some funny images. Thanks #:-) > --===============1988483261== _______________________________________________ dc-cycles mailing list dc-cycles@XXXXXX http://dc-cycles.org/mailman/cgi-bin/listinfo/dc-cycles --===============1988483261==-- _ _ _ _ .-.-.=\-. .-.-.=\-. .-.-.=\-. .-.-.=\-. (_)=='(_) (_)=='(_) (_)=='(_) (_)=='(_) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 09:08:55 -0400 From: "Wayne Edelen" To: "B-DC cycles" Subject: Re: [dc-cycles] Take a belt to me (was) NHTSA to push for mandatory training for m/c license On Sat, Oct 11, 2008 at 8:17 AM, wrote: > So require helmets in cars #;-) > > OK that would be fun but=85 (wear your helmet in a car sometime, it reall= y f&^ks with peoples head.) BTDT :-) > The environments are not all that different. Street cars do have roll cag= es in the door post/roof already, it should be better and could be for a re= latively small cost. > The environments could not be more different. Have you driven or raced a car with a rollcage and 5 or 6 point harnesses with proper racing seats? You can not move. They are designed to be cinched extremely tight to hold you in place without ANY movement. Until you strap people in with absolutely no movement, arm restraints and a neck/head restraint, there is no comparison to driving a street car with a 3 point belt and squishy, comfortable seat. While cars may have 'safety cages', their interiors have been designed to allow occupants bodies to impact them in an accident. That's where the airbags come in - spread that force over a greater period of time, thereby reducing the severity of the impact. Have airbags killed people? Sure. Have seatbelts killed people? Absolutely. Does that make either a bad idea? No. The first generation of airbags were much more powerful than they needed to be. That's why they have evolved over time to deploy with less force and only in situations where they will do the most good and least possible harm. The newer generation of airbags and associated safety systems are leaps and bounds better than they were just a few years ago I see your point about airbags, but I think you're on the wrong track comparing street cars to race cars. Two totally different animals with different challenges and goals. -- Wayne _______________________________________________ dc-cycles mailing list dc-cycles@XXXXXX http://dc-cycles.org/mailman/cgi-bin/listinfo/dc-cycles _ _ _ _ .-.-.=\-. .-.-.=\-. .-.-.=\-. .-.-.=\-. (_)=='(_) (_)=='(_) (_)=='(_) (_)=='(_) X-YMail-OSG: p0NoB74VM1mTcVZwKwtGBK8XKQJg7CQRI1naqp6OJ75JOcbN5JiSsmzTwWwukmqURuqgH1GYj7G.hDoo345O9aa.Z1JO1J03yYSwfPFh4KnRImaZ3WyCZJupzRYXda8uwLKcdj5ML0N.n.h.5POQK6KNkZgy1tVq3A5NNL9pxWFcnA1BrzE1OKwse0w- Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 06:30:49 -0700 (PDT) From: Nick Thompson To: Wayne Edelen , B-DC cycles X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.9 Subject: Re: [dc-cycles] Take a belt to me (was) NHTSA to push for mandatory training for m/c license I'll chime in on that one.=A0 I had a mustang w/ a full cage (that I drove = on the street many times -- the looks received were priceless!).=A0 I was o= nce pulled over by MD's finest for not having a front tag.=A0 The look the = trooper gave me, when I had to flip the lever to unlock my Simpson 5pt b/c = I couldn't get to my wallet to get the registration, was surely a=A0Kodak m= oment.=A0 = The only=A0race car safety item I could see putting in a production car (al= though this is probably cost prohibitive) is a fire system. I've seen an un= usually high number of car-b-ques in our area lately. Nick ----- Original Message ---- From: Wayne Edelen To: B-DC cycles Subject: Re: [dc-cycles] Take a belt to me (was) NHTSA to push for mandator= y training for m/c license On Sat, Oct 11, 2008 at 8:17 AM,=A0 wrote: > So require helmets in cars #;-) > > OK that would be fun but=85 (wear your helmet in a car sometime, it reall= y f&^ks with peoples head.) BTDT=A0 :-) > The environments are not all that different. Street cars do have roll cag= es in the door post/roof already, it should be better and could be for a re= latively small cost. > The environments could not be more different. Have you driven or raced a car with a rollcage and 5 or 6 point harnesses with proper racing seats?=A0 You can not move.=A0 They are designed to be cinched extremely tight to hold you in place without ANY movement.=A0 Until you strap people in with absolutely no movement, arm restraints and a neck/head restraint, there is no comparison to driving a street car with a 3 point belt and squishy, comfortable seat. While cars may have 'safety cages', their interiors have been designed to allow occupants bodies to impact them in an accident.=A0 That's where the airbags come in - spread that force over a greater period of time, thereby reducing the severity of the impact. Have airbags killed people?=A0 Sure.=A0 Have seatbelts killed people? Absolutely.=A0 Does that make either a bad idea?=A0 No. The first generation of airbags were much more powerful than they needed to be.=A0 That's why they have evolved over time to deploy with less force and only in situations where they will do the most good and least possible harm.=A0 The newer generation of airbags and associated safety systems are leaps and bounds better than they were just a few years ago I see your point about airbags, but I think you're on the wrong track comparing street cars to race cars.=A0 Two totally different animals with different challenges and goals. -- Wayne _______________________________________________ dc-cycles mailing list dc-cycles@XXXXXX http://dc-cycles.org/mailman/cgi-bin/listinfo/dc-cycles = _______________________________________________ dc-cycles mailing list dc-cycles@XXXXXX http://dc-cycles.org/mailman/cgi-bin/listinfo/dc-cycles _ _ _ _ .-.-.=\-. .-.-.=\-. .-.-.=\-. .-.-.=\-. (_)=='(_) (_)=='(_) (_)=='(_) (_)=='(_) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 10:31:24 -0400 From: "Wayne Edelen" To: "B-DC cycles" Subject: Re: [dc-cycles] Take a belt to me (was) NHTSA to push for mandatory training for m/c license On Sat, Oct 11, 2008 at 9:30 AM, Nick Thompson wrote: > I'll chime in on that one. I had a mustang w/ a full cage (that I drove on > the street many times -- the looks received were priceless!). I was once > pulled over by MD's finest for not having a front tag. The look the trooper > gave me, when I had to flip the lever to unlock my Simpson 5pt b/c I > couldn't get to my wallet to get the registration, was surely a Kodak > moment. Interesting - no ticket? I didn't think my 6pt belts were DOT-legal. > The only race car safety item I could see putting in a production car > (although this is probably cost prohibitive) is a fire system. I've seen an > unusually high number of car-b-ques in our area lately. http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r228/Uber55/c5/firefox4.jpg http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r228/Uber55/c5/firefox14.jpg Not necessarily to keep the car from burning - just trying to keep ME from burning :-) -- Wayne _______________________________________________ dc-cycles mailing list dc-cycles@XXXXXX http://dc-cycles.org/mailman/cgi-bin/listinfo/dc-cycles _ _ _ _ .-.-.=\-. .-.-.=\-. .-.-.=\-. .-.-.=\-. (_)=='(_) (_)=='(_) (_)=='(_) (_)=='(_) X-YMail-OSG: oeMvrw0VM1nsSNbotjJ9fvHa0q_vUhLMhAPmkdgLqZTp99Z0lO8xUYc86UYufQmEFQ-- Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 08:35:48 -0700 (PDT) From: "pltrgyst@XXXXXX" To: dc-cycles@XXXXXX Subject: Re: [dc-cycles] Take a belt to me (was) NHTSA to push for mandatory training for m/c license --- On Sat, 10/11/08, Wayne Edelen wrote: > Have you driven or raced a car with a rollcage and 5 or 6 point > harnesses with proper racing seats? You can not move. They are > designed to be cinched extremely tight to hold you in place without > ANY movement. Until you strap people in with absolutely no movement, > arm restraints and a neck/head restraint, there is no comparison to > driving a street car with a 3 point belt and squishy, comfortable seat. Agreed, but there is a middle ground, involving improved equipment. My street Miata still has the stock seats, but it also has a roll bar and five-point harness. On the street, I don't use the crotch belt, and I don't cinch up tight like at the track or autocross. (BTW, VA law only requires the use of two-point belts on the street.) Perfectly comfortable, and, I feel, mush safer than the stock retracting belts. -- Larry _______________________________________________ dc-cycles mailing list dc-cycles@XXXXXX http://dc-cycles.org/mailman/cgi-bin/listinfo/dc-cycles _ _ _ _ .-.-.=\-. .-.-.=\-. .-.-.=\-. .-.-.=\-. (_)=='(_) (_)=='(_) (_)=='(_) (_)=='(_) X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.0 c=1 a=CCLg9pW2TR4A:10 a=76VflDsbM40A:10 a=vWfLIWDzLuw9kp7reQEA:9 a=u92nnZpn2mA2zDMVDXaStpQBdqMA:4 a=rC2wZJ5BpNYA:10 a=c5zHXd76wwQA:10 From: penguinbiker@XXXXXX To: dc-cycles@XXXXXX (B-DC cycles) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 16:07:46 +0000 X-Authenticated-Sender: cGVuZ3VpbmJpa2VyQGNvbWNhc3QubmV0 Subject: Re: [dc-cycles] Take a belt to me (was) NHTSA to push for mandatory training for m/c license Frm: "pltrgyst@XXXXXX" > Agreed, but there is a middle ground, involving improved equipment. All my words and you summed it up better. Thanks. -- John W. _______________________________________________ dc-cycles mailing list dc-cycles@XXXXXX http://dc-cycles.org/mailman/cgi-bin/listinfo/dc-cycles _ _ _ _ .-.-.=\-. .-.-.=\-. .-.-.=\-. .-.-.=\-. (_)=='(_) (_)=='(_) (_)=='(_) (_)=='(_) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 13:17:47 -0400 From: "Mike B." To: penguinbiker@XXXXXX Cc: B-DC cycles Subject: [dc-cycles] Crash issues (was: Re: NHTSA to push for mandatory training for m/c license) penguinbiker@XXXXXX wrote: > From: "Mike B." omni@XXXXXX >> Despite wearing not only a seatbelt = >> but also a shoulder harness, she still managed to hit her forehead on = >> the windshield hard enough to break it. > = > OK I should not have said =93all of those injuries=94 My basic point is t= hat other things can be _as_ or more effective as bags, not that they would= protect against everything. I can agree with you on that. Airbags are also sometime more dangerous than the crash. As with almost = everything, if you are completely average, i.e. the person they design = for, they can work pretty well for you. If you are bigger, or smaller, = taller or shorter, they can kill you very easily, in a crash that would = otherwise be perfectly survivable given things like crumple zones, seat = belts and other things cars have already. I really don't want to have = my neck broken by an airbag in a 30 mph front end collision...but = Congress said they did want that, so that's what it is. >> Luckily, the pressure cut on her forehead was the only injury. = > = > So if you really look at it the belts worked just fine. She was hit by a = BUS for gods sake and just bumped her head. That is what I call success. = Yep! And as with many accidents, there were several things that were = done wrong to lead up to that result. If any of them had not been done, = there'd have been no accident in the first place. The main culprits that could have been controlled (wet roads are not one = of these) were speed, tailgating and her lack of driving ability (i.e. = lack of training). When she braked too hard (due to tailgating) she started to skid, but = rather than correcting for it, she over corrected and started to skid = the other way, which she over corrected for, and the result was = fishtailing at greater and greater amplitudes, while slowing faster than = the tailgating car behind her could slow, so he hit her and started her = spinning. The bus was obviously going too fast for conditions, as even = with several car lengths of room (everyone else, including the car that = started her spin, had dived for the shoulder), it still slid into her = with its wheels locked and a fair bit of the 50 mph speed that everyone = had been traveling at. The other damaged vehicles were all rear ended, due to tailgating, as = they tried to slow to avoid this whole scene. I was moving right, = slowing as slowly as possible while still remaining behind the = fishtailing and then spinning car, and pulled off on the right shoulder = as she passed in front of me post-bus-hit. The other car that had been = in the middle of this without getting hit was a white Rabbit (no, I = wasn't listening to Jefferson Starship at the time...) driven by an = off-duty Alexandria paramedic, who was first to render her some = assistance, using a roll of paper towels I had in the car. To their credit, DC cops were on the scene inside of 3 minutes...one = pulled up onto the northbound side as I was getting out of the car, did = a flip-flop and came back down the shoulder on the southbound side. = Since I wasn't hit, and wasn't a paramedic, and there were plenty of = other witnesses and tire track evidence, they sent me on my way...which = was fine with me. I'm sure the whole thing only took 10 seconds or so to play out, but it = seemed like it took minutes. I never saw the white Rabbit until = everything was stopped, though he was obviously just ahead and to my = right based on where everyone ended up. We were both really lucky. >> I thought this might be a great = >> solution until I considered two things: 1) in a head on crash, you would = >> likely still hit the ejecting occupants of the other car, and 2) crashes = >> in tunnels or under overpasses. = > = > Now _that_ creates some funny images. > Thanks #:-) > You're welcome. And a bit sick. ;-) -- Mike B. -- = '04 FLSTCI (H-D Softail Heritage Classic with EFI for the non-Harley folks) Learning from your mistakes is good. Learning from someone else's mistakes is better. _______________________________________________ dc-cycles mailing list dc-cycles@XXXXXX http://dc-cycles.org/mailman/cgi-bin/listinfo/dc-cycles