From: dc-cycles-digest-request@XXXXXX (The dc-cycles list administrator) To: dc-cycles@XXXXXX Subject: dc-cycles digest for 10/07/08 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ __ /-----\ __ 'dc-cycles' is an unmoderated email discussion list (__\/ _____ \/__) about motorcycling in the Washington D.C. area. =( \___/ )= \ ___ / An archive of the dc-cycles list is available at: | / _ \ | http://www.dc-cycles.org/ \ || || / \|| ||/ Subscribe/unsubscribe requests should be sent to: \| |/ dc-cycles-digest-request@XXXXXX |_| ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.0 c=1 a=BtxXP4_wjQEA:10 a=1iLFUGSUpsYA:10 a=mffFjg-QAAAA:8 a=AsHw8vDvAAAA:8 a=aYcleYu2BPEyebCq5JQA:9 a=4TSO_IEhNv7TpUWCTxcA:7 a=CqngIkDSqtABjiTtYfc94iVBprUA:4 a=BaqTQ9T_-UAA:10 a=ss570nopZxcA:10 a=sd_HQn5GHJ4A:10 a=WQHMwJzmsicA:10 a=BgJWR2bEJjkA:10 Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2008 19:04:25 -0400 From: "John M. Stafford" To: Subject: Re: [dc-cycles] dc-cycles Digest, Vol 28, Issue 4 Please send all future promotional announcements to promo@XXXXXX so that all of my reps can see them. Update your address book to remove stafford@XXXXXX from your list and add promo@XXXXXX to your list. Thank you in advance for your help. John M. Stafford Account Executive A Proud Member of the Graphic Arts Guild Direct: 866.477.2259 Cell: 703.346.8729 Fax: 866.233.1811 stafford@XXXXXX http://www.ScooterPromo.com/ http://www.DemSign.com/ _______________________________________________ dc-cycles mailing list dc-cycles@XXXXXX http://dc-cycles.org/mailman/cgi-bin/listinfo/dc-cycles _ _ _ _ .-.-.=\-. .-.-.=\-. .-.-.=\-. .-.-.=\-. (_)=='(_) (_)=='(_) (_)=='(_) (_)=='(_) From: "Dave Yates" To: "DCCycles" , "Zx@Motohaus. Org" X-Forwarded-For: [(null)] Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2008 13:44:54 +0000 Subject: [dc-cycles] NHTSA to push for mandatory training for m/c license Story at: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/10/06/AR2008100603148.html or http://tinyurl.com/4ynzsf Only 2 percent of all vehicles on the nation's roads last year were motorcycles, yet they were involved in 11 percent of all traffic accidents, leaving slightly more than 5,100 riders dead and 103,000 injured, according to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration. Fatalities have more than doubled over a decade as more motorcycles have hit the road. ... The steady rise in motorcycle crashes has become a top concern of the U.S. Department of Transportation, said Secretary Mary Peters, who broke her collarbone a few years ago when she crashed her Harley-Davidson Road King at 40 mph. A helmet saved her life, she said. To address the problem, the Transportation Department is developing national standards for entry-level riders and has launched an educational campaign on the importance of wearing helmets and other safety gear. Congress has also become involved, authorizing $2 million for a study of crashes' causes. This is the first set of step to implement a new government program - generating buzz about the program or getting people talking about it. NHTSA regs have the full force of law and can be whimsically crafted from thin air with no basis or relation to fact. While I agree new riders deserve a decent chance to live-and should be professionally trained, I disagree that the government should be involved in it. Dave _______________________________________________ dc-cycles mailing list dc-cycles@XXXXXX http://dc-cycles.org/mailman/cgi-bin/listinfo/dc-cycles _ _ _ _ .-.-.=\-. .-.-.=\-. .-.-.=\-. .-.-.=\-. (_)=='(_) (_)=='(_) (_)=='(_) (_)=='(_) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 10:00:04 -0400 From: SassyDiva To: "Dave Yates" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.9 Cc: DCCycles , "Zx@Motohaus. Org" Subject: Re: [dc-cycles] NHTSA to push for mandatory training for m/c license i received a letter from MD MVA basically that said they noticed i had my lerners and that they would encourage me to take the motorcycle safety course.... On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 9:44 AM, Dave Yates wrote: > Story at: > http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/10/06/AR2008100603148.html > > or > > http://tinyurl.com/4ynzsf > > Only 2 percent of all vehicles on the nation's roads last year were > motorcycles, yet they were involved in 11 percent of all traffic accidents, > leaving slightly more than 5,100 riders dead and 103,000 injured, according > to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration. Fatalities have more > than doubled over a decade as more motorcycles have hit the road. > > ... > > The steady rise in motorcycle crashes has become a top concern of the U.S. > Department of Transportation, said Secretary Mary Peters, who broke her > collarbone a few years ago when she crashed her Harley-Davidson Road King at > 40 mph. A helmet saved her life, she said. > > To address the problem, the Transportation Department is developing > national standards for entry-level riders and has launched an educational > campaign on the importance of wearing helmets and other safety gear. > Congress has also become involved, authorizing $2 million for a study of > crashes' causes. > > > This is the first set of step to implement a new government program - > generating buzz about the program or getting people talking about it. NHTSA > regs have the full force of law and can be whimsically crafted from thin air > with no basis or relation to fact. While I agree new riders deserve a > decent chance to live-and should be professionally trained, I disagree that > the government should be involved in it. > > Dave > > > > _______________________________________________ > dc-cycles mailing list > dc-cycles@XXXXXX > http://dc-cycles.org/mailman/cgi-bin/listinfo/dc-cycles > -- Sassy Diva Men are like parking spaces; all the good ones are taken and the only ones left are handicapped. _______________________________________________ dc-cycles mailing list dc-cycles@XXXXXX http://dc-cycles.org/mailman/cgi-bin/listinfo/dc-cycles _ _ _ _ .-.-.=\-. .-.-.=\-. .-.-.=\-. .-.-.=\-. (_)=='(_) (_)=='(_) (_)=='(_) (_)=='(_) X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.0 c=1 a=rTO1I49FW00A:10 a=gVYFhBizLF0A:10 a=IKwlt8GQcM7SRhktqDoA:9 a=ojtmSqAL9iW7yY17M_cgQWOsG3wA:4 a=oVfb_K9L7p8A:10 a=rPt6xJ-oxjAA:10 From: PenguinBiker@XXXXXX To: dc-cycles@XXXXXX (B-DC cycles) Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2008 14:29:38 +0000 X-Authenticated-Sender: UGVuZ3VpbkJpa2VyQGNvbWNhc3QubmV0 Subject: Re: [dc-cycles] NHTSA to push for mandatory training for m/c license -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: "Dave Yates" > While I agree new riders deserve a decent chance to live-and > should be professionally trained, I disagree that the government should be > involved in it. A big ditto there! (One of the reasons MSF has never pushed for mandatory training is that there are simply not enough instructors and I can see no way to produce anywhere near enough _qualified_ instructors to meet a mandated requirement.) -- John W. _______________________________________________ dc-cycles mailing list dc-cycles@XXXXXX http://dc-cycles.org/mailman/cgi-bin/listinfo/dc-cycles _ _ _ _ .-.-.=\-. .-.-.=\-. .-.-.=\-. .-.-.=\-. (_)=='(_) (_)=='(_) (_)=='(_) (_)=='(_) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 10:47:06 -0400 From: "Trevor Angel" To: PenguinBiker@XXXXXX Cc: B-DC cycles Subject: Re: [dc-cycles] NHTSA to push for mandatory training for m/c license This is part of the problem with this country - any government intervention is automatically seen as bad (although some people are changing their minds a little - or at least want an each-way bet - in the current financial crisis). Let's be real - most 16/17/18 year old new riders think they are invincible. This is especially a problem in states with no helmet laws, where they don't have good role models. Seems the majority of older riders who should know better, don't wear helmets. A well-run, mandatory training program for new riders cannot help but to save lives in the long run, and at the same time reduce cost of hospitalization and insurance on the rest of the community. Even without getting into the helmet debate, if kids get used to wearing helmets early on it's less likely that they'll stop, even if they live in a state where they don't have to be worn. Trevor On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 10:29 AM, wrote: > -------------- Original message ---------------------- > From: "Dave Yates" > >> While I agree new riders deserve a decent chance to live-and >> should be professionally trained, I disagree that the government should be >> involved in it. > > A big ditto there! > > (One of the reasons MSF has never pushed for mandatory training is that there > are simply not enough instructors and I can see no way to produce anywhere near > enough _qualified_ instructors to meet a mandated requirement.) > -- > John W. > _______________________________________________ > dc-cycles mailing list > dc-cycles@XXXXXX > http://dc-cycles.org/mailman/cgi-bin/listinfo/dc-cycles > _______________________________________________ dc-cycles mailing list dc-cycles@XXXXXX http://dc-cycles.org/mailman/cgi-bin/listinfo/dc-cycles _ _ _ _ .-.-.=\-. .-.-.=\-. .-.-.=\-. .-.-.=\-. (_)=='(_) (_)=='(_) (_)=='(_) (_)=='(_) X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.0 c=1 a=rTO1I49FW00A:10 a=gVYFhBizLF0A:10 a=KjFz6WL6ocA_7ZJ6CeYA:9 a=9iM5_kEGIoT25x1rTuHJqefU-KIA:4 a=MSl-tDqOz04A:10 a=KUJAPYlYduUA:10 From: PenguinBiker@XXXXXX To: dc-cycles@XXXXXX (B-DC cycles) Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2008 15:03:22 +0000 X-Authenticated-Sender: UGVuZ3VpbkJpa2VyQGNvbWNhc3QubmV0 Subject: Re: [dc-cycles] NHTSA to push for mandatory training for m/c license --===============1504572695== -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: "Trevor Angel" > This is part of the problem with this country - any government > intervention is automatically seen as bad Not what I said. What I said was that there is simply no way to give proper instruction to as many people as the law would require. Nor is there any hope of ever having enough QUALIFIED instructors or funding to do the job. > Let's be real - most 16/17/18 year old new riders think they are > invincible. This is especially a problem in states with no helmet > laws, No correlation at all one has _nothing_ to do with the other. > Seems the majority of > older riders who should know better, don't wear helmets. Or maybe they do know better, majority rule, remember. > A well-run, mandatory training program for new riders cannot help but > to save lives in the long run, True. Impossible but true. > without getting into the helmet debate, if kids get used to wearing > helmets early on it's less likely that they'll stop, even if they live > in a state where they don't have to be worn. If that were true then states that had long term helmet laws would have very high helmet use. They don’t. I am in favor of professional instruction but can see no way to make it work. I am in favor of helmets but strongly oppose helmet laws. John. --===============1504572695== _______________________________________________ dc-cycles mailing list dc-cycles@XXXXXX http://dc-cycles.org/mailman/cgi-bin/listinfo/dc-cycles --===============1504572695==-- _ _ _ _ .-.-.=\-. .-.-.=\-. .-.-.=\-. .-.-.=\-. (_)=='(_) (_)=='(_) (_)=='(_) (_)=='(_) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 12:39:29 -0400 From: "Patrick Mullen" To: "Trevor Angel" Cc: B-DC cycles Subject: Re: [dc-cycles] NHTSA to push for mandatory training for m/c license This is the problem with mandated rider training: Rhode Island requires all motorcycle operators to go through motorcycle riders' school. As such, you get *everyone* there. This means the people who want to be there as well as the teenager who couldn't be bothered, the guy who "is so far beyond this," and the person who already has many thousands of miles under his/her belt but needs to take the course for some reason. In this situation, the vast majority of people in the class have no interest in the class and just want to get through it as quickly as possible to get their piece of paper and have no interest in actually participating. My friend who lives in RI just went through the process found it frustrating to have the instructor pushing through the coursework, letting people out early, when she really wanted to learn how to ride. She ended up getting her piece of paper but she didn't feel that she really knew how to ride at the end of the course. In the days before mandated attendance, instructors could spend a lot more time with people to make sure they knew what they were doing. MSF training is a very good thing. Don't let it get watered down because the "I already know how to ride, let the class out early because this is pointless" crowd /always/ wins. ~Patrick -- 2003 Triumph Sprint ST 2004 (race) / 2001 (street) Suzuki SV650 2000 Yamaha WR-400 1975 Harley FXE1200 _______________________________________________ dc-cycles mailing list dc-cycles@XXXXXX http://dc-cycles.org/mailman/cgi-bin/listinfo/dc-cycles _ _ _ _ .-.-.=\-. .-.-.=\-. .-.-.=\-. .-.-.=\-. (_)=='(_) (_)=='(_) (_)=='(_) (_)=='(_) X-rim-org-msg-ref-id: 2103820665 To: "Patrick Mullen" , "Trevor Angel" From: dcmcrider@XXXXXX Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 16:46:54 +0000 Cc: List DC Cycles Subject: Re: [dc-cycles] NHTSA to push for mandatory training for m/c license If rider training does become mandatory (there are serious federalism issues by the way), someone might well question why rider training, in the guise of the MSF, is essentially run by the motorcycle industry. My opinion only. P Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T -----Original Message----- From: "Patrick Mullen" Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 12:39:29 To: Trevor Angel Cc: B-DC cycles Subject: Re: [dc-cycles] NHTSA to push for mandatory training for m/c license This is the problem with mandated rider training: Rhode Island requires all motorcycle operators to go through motorcycle riders' school. As such, you get *everyone* there. This means the people who want to be there as well as the teenager who couldn't be bothered, the guy who "is so far beyond this," and the person who already has many thousands of miles under his/her belt but needs to take the course for some reason. In this situation, the vast majority of people in the class have no interest in the class and just want to get through it as quickly as possible to get their piece of paper and have no interest in actually participating. My friend who lives in RI just went through the process found it frustrating to have the instructor pushing through the coursework, letting people out early, when she really wanted to learn how to ride. She ended up getting her piece of paper but she didn't feel that she really knew how to ride at the end of the course. In the days before mandated attendance, instructors could spend a lot more time with people to make sure they knew what they were doing. MSF training is a very good thing. Don't let it get watered down because the "I already know how to ride, let the class out early because this is pointless" crowd /always/ wins. ~Patrick -- 2003 Triumph Sprint ST 2004 (race) / 2001 (street) Suzuki SV650 2000 Yamaha WR-400 1975 Harley FXE1200 _______________________________________________ dc-cycles mailing list dc-cycles@XXXXXX http://dc-cycles.org/mailman/cgi-bin/listinfo/dc-cycles _______________________________________________ dc-cycles mailing list dc-cycles@XXXXXX http://dc-cycles.org/mailman/cgi-bin/listinfo/dc-cycles _ _ _ _ .-.-.=\-. .-.-.=\-. .-.-.=\-. .-.-.=\-. (_)=='(_) (_)=='(_) (_)=='(_) (_)=='(_) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 14:09:08 -0400 From: "Michael Jordan" To: "B-DC cycles" Subject: Re: [dc-cycles] NHTSA to push for mandatory training for m/c license And then, there's graduated licensing. -- Michael J. '86 SRX-6 '93 GSX1100G '03 DL1000 AMA IBA #3901 USAF (Ret) NRA etc. _______________________________________________ dc-cycles mailing list dc-cycles@XXXXXX http://dc-cycles.org/mailman/cgi-bin/listinfo/dc-cycles _ _ _ _ .-.-.=\-. .-.-.=\-. .-.-.=\-. .-.-.=\-. (_)=='(_) (_)=='(_) (_)=='(_) (_)=='(_) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 14:39:43 -0400 From: "Trevor Angel" To: "Michael Jordan" Cc: B-DC cycles Subject: Re: [dc-cycles] NHTSA to push for mandatory training for m/c license On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 2:09 PM, Michael Jordan wrote: > And then, there's graduated licensing. And guess what - it works... In Australia you're limited to 250cc for the first year. Bikes like the RGV250 made a bit of a mockery of the intention (to keep people on "slow" bikes for a year) but they're a thing of the past now anyway. These days a ZZR250 is a fairly sensible bike for a new rider who wants something sporty. It makes me cringe when I see inexperienced riders get straight on a high-performance bike that they don't have the skills, experience or road-sense for... or dare I say it... "maturity"... Trevor _______________________________________________ dc-cycles mailing list dc-cycles@XXXXXX http://dc-cycles.org/mailman/cgi-bin/listinfo/dc-cycles _ _ _ _ .-.-.=\-. .-.-.=\-. .-.-.=\-. .-.-.=\-. (_)=='(_) (_)=='(_) (_)=='(_) (_)=='(_) From: "Chris Norloff" To: "'B-DC cycles'" Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 14:47:56 -0400 Subject: [dc-cycles] graduated licensing? [was: NHTSA to push for mandatory training for m/c license] Is there evidence that graduated licensing works? It's been a few years, but the last time I reviewed the literature, graduated licensing was shown to NOT work. Graduated licensing sounds good, and sure, it's harder to get in trouble on a moped than a sport bike, but stupid is as stupid does. People can be stupid on *anything*. best, Chris -----Original Message----- From: dc-cycles-bounces@XXXXXX [mailto:dc-cycles-bounces@XXXXXX] On Behalf Of Trevor Angel To: Michael Jordan Cc: B-DC cycles Subject: Re: [dc-cycles] NHTSA to push for mandatory training for m/c license On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 2:09 PM, Michael Jordan wrote: > And then, there's graduated licensing. And guess what - it works... In Australia you're limited to 250cc for the first year. Bikes like the RGV250 made a bit of a mockery of the intention (to keep people on "slow" bikes for a year) but they're a thing of the past now anyway. These days a ZZR250 is a fairly sensible bike for a new rider who wants something sporty. It makes me cringe when I see inexperienced riders get straight on a high-performance bike that they don't have the skills, experience or road-sense for... or dare I say it... "maturity"... Trevor _______________________________________________ dc-cycles mailing list dc-cycles@XXXXXX http://dc-cycles.org/mailman/cgi-bin/listinfo/dc-cycles _______________________________________________ dc-cycles mailing list dc-cycles@XXXXXX http://dc-cycles.org/mailman/cgi-bin/listinfo/dc-cycles _ _ _ _ .-.-.=\-. .-.-.=\-. .-.-.=\-. .-.-.=\-. (_)=='(_) (_)=='(_) (_)=='(_) (_)=='(_) From: "Chris Norloff" To: "'B-DC cycles'" Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 14:50:14 -0400 Subject: Re: [dc-cycles] NHTSA to push for mandatory training for m/c license Mandatory training can be a big problem. I taught for Maryland when 16 & 17 year olds were first mandated to take the course. Talk about attitude! But they calmed down when faced with behave-and-pass-this-course, or walk away ... Some countries have (had?) mandatory training. Germany, Switzerland? Expensive and time-consuming. Worth it? I don't know. Anybody have an opinion out there? [ducking and running] Chris -----Original Message----- From: dc-cycles-bounces@XXXXXX [mailto:dc-cycles-bounces@XXXXXX] On Behalf Of Patrick Mullen To: Trevor Angel Cc: B-DC cycles Subject: Re: [dc-cycles] NHTSA to push for mandatory training for m/c license This is the problem with mandated rider training: Rhode Island requires all motorcycle operators to go through motorcycle riders' school. As such, you get *everyone* there. This means the people who want to be there as well as the teenager who couldn't be bothered, the guy who "is so far beyond this," and the person who already has many thousands of miles under his/her belt but needs to take the course for some reason. In this situation, the vast majority of people in the class have no interest in the class and just want to get through it as quickly as possible to get their piece of paper and have no interest in actually participating. My friend who lives in RI just went through the process found it frustrating to have the instructor pushing through the coursework, letting people out early, when she really wanted to learn how to ride. She ended up getting her piece of paper but she didn't feel that she really knew how to ride at the end of the course. In the days before mandated attendance, instructors could spend a lot more time with people to make sure they knew what they were doing. MSF training is a very good thing. Don't let it get watered down because the "I already know how to ride, let the class out early because this is pointless" crowd /always/ wins. ~Patrick -- 2003 Triumph Sprint ST 2004 (race) / 2001 (street) Suzuki SV650 2000 Yamaha WR-400 1975 Harley FXE1200 _______________________________________________ dc-cycles mailing list dc-cycles@XXXXXX http://dc-cycles.org/mailman/cgi-bin/listinfo/dc-cycles _______________________________________________ dc-cycles mailing list dc-cycles@XXXXXX http://dc-cycles.org/mailman/cgi-bin/listinfo/dc-cycles _ _ _ _ .-.-.=\-. .-.-.=\-. .-.-.=\-. .-.-.=\-. (_)=='(_) (_)=='(_) (_)=='(_) (_)=='(_) X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.0 c=1 a=BtxXP4_wjQEA:10 a=1iLFUGSUpsYA:10 a=mffFjg-QAAAA:8 a=AsHw8vDvAAAA:8 a=aYcleYu2BPEyebCq5JQA:9 a=4TSO_IEhNv7TpUWCTxcA:7 a=CqngIkDSqtABjiTtYfc94iVBprUA:4 a=BaqTQ9T_-UAA:10 a=ss570nopZxcA:10 a=sd_HQn5GHJ4A:10 a=WQHMwJzmsicA:10 a=BgJWR2bEJjkA:10 Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2008 14:51:01 -0400 From: "John M. Stafford" To: Subject: Re: [dc-cycles] dc-cycles Digest, Vol 28, Issue 4 Please send all future promotional announcements to promo@XXXXXX so that all of my reps can see them. Update your address book to remove stafford@XXXXXX from your list and add promo@XXXXXX to your list. Thank you in advance for your help. John M. Stafford Account Executive A Proud Member of the Graphic Arts Guild Direct: 866.477.2259 Cell: 703.346.8729 Fax: 866.233.1811 stafford@XXXXXX http://www.ScooterPromo.com/ http://www.DemSign.com/ _______________________________________________ dc-cycles mailing list dc-cycles@XXXXXX http://dc-cycles.org/mailman/cgi-bin/listinfo/dc-cycles _ _ _ _ .-.-.=\-. .-.-.=\-. .-.-.=\-. .-.-.=\-. (_)=='(_) (_)=='(_) (_)=='(_) (_)=='(_) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 15:21:33 -0400 From: "Patrick Mullen" To: "Trevor Angel" Cc: B-DC cycles Subject: Re: [dc-cycles] NHTSA to push for mandatory training for m/c license >> And then, there's graduated licensing. > > And guess what - it works... I respectfully disagree. Stupid is as stupid does. I also cringe at seeing someone jump onto a GSXR1000 as a first bike, but the people who are going to buy a stupidly overpowered first bike and then ride way over their head are going to kill themselves no matter what you stick them on. One race weekend at Thunderhill in Willows, CA, a guy was airlifted to the hospital after crashing his pit bike doing a stunt. Just how small does a bike have to be to protect one from oneself? ~Patrick -- 2003 Triumph Sprint ST 2004 (race) / 2001 (street) Suzuki SV650 2000 Yamaha WR-400 1975 Harley FXE1200 _______________________________________________ dc-cycles mailing list dc-cycles@XXXXXX http://dc-cycles.org/mailman/cgi-bin/listinfo/dc-cycles _ _ _ _ .-.-.=\-. .-.-.=\-. .-.-.=\-. .-.-.=\-. (_)=='(_) (_)=='(_) (_)=='(_) (_)=='(_) X-YMail-OSG: KTZAzkgVM1lv0MwnHkMafgbdKlDfCr1KpZrvU1iCFqNByRyjagd.DxO3Fjc0gSGzrzTVcqOg7K.70FkOCQSBlCHj9ItjucEfQveBtUIusqDWbdBNs5egB7EYkc5Pn.gZo7v1Tv_5qM.xZMyZP7V2f9ikv8HK Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 12:32:53 -0700 (PDT) From: matthew patton To: dc-cycles@XXXXXX Subject: Re: [dc-cycles] NHTSA to push for mandatory training for m/c license > Some countries have (had?) mandatory training. Germany, > Switzerland? Expensive and time-consuming. Worth it? UK and Japan. VERY much worth it. It's patently obvious that MC riders should be required to be trained. Anybody in a position to harm others not to mention themselves ARE regulated (pilots, crane, train, commercial vehicle, const equipment) except cagers and MC riders which is so incredibly stupid and insane the mind boggles. So what if there aren't enough instructors to go around. We (society) don't need incompetent and un-serious operators. It doesn't matter that say 2/3rds of potentially new riders decide they aren't committed enough to do the training and never join "the club." Good riddance. MSF's current training level is a laugh. I tell my students; "this certificate reflects our reasonable confidence in your ability to operate a 250cc motorcycle at ~20mph in an empty parking lot devoid of traffic and to not kill or injure yourself in the process. Anything beyond these express conditions is entirely unsubstantiated." > This means the people > who want to be there as well as the teenager who > couldn't be bothered piss on the teenager - if he wants to ride, he will have to choose to behave. > guy who "is so far beyond this," and the person > who already has many > thousands of miles under his/her belt but needs to take the > course for some reason. SO what?! the experienced riders may moan but they'll check it off. I mean really, it's all of 2.5 freaking days over a SINGLE weekend. The guy who is "so far beyond" probably has all KINDS of crap skills that need addressing. I can't begin to count the number of guys 2x my age and a decade+ of riding who have come up to me and thanked us for showing them where they were doing things badly. > interest in the class and just want to get through it as > quickly as possible > to get their piece of paper and have no interest in > actually participating. and I will promptly fail them. > My friend who lives in RI just went through the process > found it frustrating > to have the instructor pushing through the coursework, > letting people out > early, when she really wanted to learn how to ride. then obviously the RI program is run like crap. > before mandated > attendance, instructors could spend a lot more time with > people to make sure > they knew what they were doing. I see absolutely no reason why the instructor's behavior pre- or post- should be any different. they are all required to do their 20hrs or what have you and dealing with "experienced" riders would mean that some exercises could be run shorter and others longer. > MSF training is a very good thing. Don't let it get > watered down because > the "I already know how to ride, let the class out > early because this is > pointless" crowd /always/ wins. only apparently if the instructor and the organization supervising him is crap. David Hepburn would in all probability sack instructors on the spot if they pulled something like that. _______________________________________________ dc-cycles mailing list dc-cycles@XXXXXX http://dc-cycles.org/mailman/cgi-bin/listinfo/dc-cycles _ _ _ _ .-.-.=\-. .-.-.=\-. .-.-.=\-. .-.-.=\-. (_)=='(_) (_)=='(_) (_)=='(_) (_)=='(_) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 15:41:37 -0400 From: "Trevor Angel" To: "Michael Jordan" Cc: B-DC cycles Subject: Re: [dc-cycles] NHTSA to push for mandatory training for m/c license On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 2:39 PM, Trevor Angel wrote: > On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 2:09 PM, Michael Jordan wrote: >> And then, there's graduated licensing. > > And guess what - it works... Ok I take that back... there's an interesting study from Monash University in Melbourne that talks about graduated licensing and rider training, among (many) other things. Basically it says that a number of factors make it difficult to draw conclusions on the affect of either of these measures on crash rates. On graduated licensing it says "Road safety researchers noted that the relationship existed at the time that the restriction for novice riders was introduced (1980's) but that the position may be less clear now. There is a need for current exposure data..." http://www.monash.edu.au/muarc/reports/muarc087.pdf Trevor _______________________________________________ dc-cycles mailing list dc-cycles@XXXXXX http://dc-cycles.org/mailman/cgi-bin/listinfo/dc-cycles _ _ _ _ .-.-.=\-. .-.-.=\-. .-.-.=\-. .-.-.=\-. (_)=='(_) (_)=='(_) (_)=='(_) (_)=='(_) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 15:46:23 -0400 From: "Paul Wilson" To: pattonme@XXXXXX Cc: dc-cycles@XXXXXX Subject: Re: [dc-cycles] NHTSA to push for mandatory training for m/c license On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 3:32 PM, matthew patton wrote: > >> MSF training is a very good thing. Don't let it get >> watered down because >> the "I already know how to ride, let the class out >> early because this is >> pointless" crowd /always/ wins. > > only apparently if the instructor and the organization supervising him is crap. David Hepburn would in all probability sack instructors on the spot if they pulled something like that. > Wow, if the program in Rhode Island is really that shoddy, someone in Irvine (MSF) needs to hear about it pronto and have that site's accreditation questioned and/or pulled. Pressure to rush things from the students is foreign to my experience with the VRTP. One of the consistent complaints we get on evaluations is that the course is too SHORT. We are under time constraints due to limited facilities and available equipment, but every course is conducted within the time guidelines laid down by MSF and the powers that be in Richmond. If the course were mandatory, we would probably getting some guff from "experienced" riders. I imagine, though, the serious attitude cases would just continue to ride without a license. It's also incumbent on a good instructor/coach to deal effectively with attitude like that and a myriad other problems. It sometimes happens with the husband/wife, bf/gf, father/son combos we get. P _______________________________________________ dc-cycles mailing list dc-cycles@XXXXXX http://dc-cycles.org/mailman/cgi-bin/listinfo/dc-cycles _ _ _ _ .-.-.=\-. .-.-.=\-. .-.-.=\-. .-.-.=\-. (_)=='(_) (_)=='(_) (_)=='(_) (_)=='(_) From: "Chris Norloff" To: Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 15:52:24 -0400 Subject: Re: [dc-cycles] NHTSA to push for mandatory training for m/c license Comments embedded ... >-----Original Message----- >From: dc-cycles-bounces@XXXXXX [mailto:dc-cycles-bounces@XXXXXX] On Behalf Of matthew patton >... >So what if there aren't enough instructors to go around. We (society) don't need incompetent and un-serious operators. It >doesn't matter that say 2/3rds of potentially new riders decide they aren't committed enough to do the training and never >join "the club." Good riddance. They don't leave, they just ride without a license ... or any training. That's an existing problem: unlicensed and untrained motorcyclists are over-represented in fatal & non-fatal wrecks. >piss on the teenager - if he wants to ride, he will have to choose to behave. No, the teenager will say piss on you and will ride without a license or training. This is an existing problem. > SO what?! the experienced riders may moan but they'll check it off. I mean really, it's all of 2.5 freaking days over a >SINGLE weekend. That's the 2.5 days you say are so basic as to be laughable. Now you're arguing against yourself. best, Chris _______________________________________________ dc-cycles mailing list dc-cycles@XXXXXX http://dc-cycles.org/mailman/cgi-bin/listinfo/dc-cycles _ _ _ _ .-.-.=\-. .-.-.=\-. .-.-.=\-. .-.-.=\-. (_)=='(_) (_)=='(_) (_)=='(_) (_)=='(_) X-YMail-OSG: LxoXjYwVM1mnjNiy5WpgXSp7GAJk5t7buL.nqXGCxyoypyCp2gzQ999isDZyyVCTT4PaqCRc8t07nDtN8Pf8yRAaZMaiWETTx45vxcAftxdcykIfQwX6CLtK.aPEyOA9bowB25GELt14XQm5o8LNuo3_aLop Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 13:09:31 -0700 (PDT) From: matthew patton To: dc-cycles@XXXXXX Subject: Re: [dc-cycles] NHTSA to push for mandatory training for m/c license Chris wrote: > >So what if there aren't enough instructors to go > around. We (society) don't > need incompetent and un-serious operators. It > >doesn't matter that say 2/3rds of potentially new > riders decide they aren't > committed enough to do the training and never > >join "the club." Good riddance. > > They don't leave, they just ride without a license ... > or any training. that's none of my concern. That's Richmond and the LEO's problem. If Richmond is actually serious then laws prohibiting the sale of a MC to an unlicensed operator will be on the books. Further, laws allowing for any MC being operated by an unlicensed person to be immediately impounded follow naturally. That is how it should be. > That's an existing problem: unlicensed and untrained > motorcyclists are > over-represented in fatal & non-fatal wrecks. I don't doubt it. > No, the teenager will say piss on you and will ride without > a license or training. This is an existing problem. Mandatory training will do NOTHING to alter the criminally minded - nobody would suggest otherwise. A kid who has no interest in training won't think twice about not bothering either way. But he *might well* pay attention if he knew his bike was at risk of impound and he could only buy private party. And couldn't get insurance, and couldn't get tags without showing a proper license. > That's the 2.5 days you say are so basic as to be > laughable. Now you're > arguing against yourself. Not even. MSF training such as it is, is vastly better than nothing. Personally the current MSF weekend should only allow you to buy a <150cc scooter. If you want a proper MC endorsement then you have to come back for stage 2 with an on-road component. THEN you will be allowed to operate a <40HP (in unrestricted form) bike. _______________________________________________ dc-cycles mailing list dc-cycles@XXXXXX http://dc-cycles.org/mailman/cgi-bin/listinfo/dc-cycles _ _ _ _ .-.-.=\-. .-.-.=\-. .-.-.=\-. .-.-.=\-. (_)=='(_) (_)=='(_) (_)=='(_) (_)=='(_) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 16:58:05 -0400 From: "Wayne Edelen" To: dc-cycles@XXXXXX Subject: Re: [dc-cycles] NHTSA to push for mandatory training for m/c license On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 3:32 PM, matthew patton wrote: > > Anybody in a position to harm others not to mention themselves ARE regulated (pilots, crane, train, commercial vehicle, const equipment) except cagers and MC riders which is so incredibly stupid and insane the mind boggles. > How often does a motorcycle harm anyone except themselves in an accident - regardless of fault? I'm not against more driver and rider training, but it's painfully obvious we need automobile training as bad or worse if you look at it from a 'who does the most harm to others' perspective. -- Wayne _______________________________________________ dc-cycles mailing list dc-cycles@XXXXXX http://dc-cycles.org/mailman/cgi-bin/listinfo/dc-cycles _ _ _ _ .-.-.=\-. .-.-.=\-. .-.-.=\-. .-.-.=\-. (_)=='(_) (_)=='(_) (_)=='(_) (_)=='(_) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 17:19:31 -0400 From: "Paul Wilson" To: "Wayne Edelen" Cc: dc-cycles@XXXXXX Subject: Re: [dc-cycles] NHTSA to push for mandatory training for m/c license You'll get no arguments from me on driver training, but every time a politician tries to "get tough" the public sends mixed signals. Need I remind you of the crap-storm that ensued over "abusive driver" penalties in the Commonwealth? Expect something 100 times worse if intensified driver training were ever contemplated. Seems the menace on the road is always the other guy. Like the kids in Lake Wobegon, everyone considers himself an "above average" driver. What motorcycle licensing and training do is provide a cooling off period and a reality check for some people. But, those people are probably already inclined to act responsibly and prudently, and currently they self-select to attend training. Or, perhaps they made a quid pro quo with a parent or Significant Other. "If I get some training, can I get a bike?" And we (in the "training community") provide an outlet for them. Not sure how, or if, we can reach the one-percenters hell-bent on offing themselves on two wheels. One of the dividends of the product safety movement (Joan Claybrook--call your office) is that personal responsibility took a back seat. If everyone is the victim of a "defective" product every time there's an unintended outcome, then why bother learning how to do *anything* properly? Big Government will protect you. We'll either just root out all those defects and idiot-proof everything. Well, it turns out on the "defects" of motorcycles is that they only have two wheels. On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 4:58 PM, Wayne Edelen wrote: > On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 3:32 PM, matthew patton wrote: >> >> Anybody in a position to harm others not to mention themselves ARE regulated (pilots, crane, train, commercial vehicle, const equipment) except cagers and MC riders which is so incredibly stupid and insane the mind boggles. >> > > > How often does a motorcycle harm anyone except themselves in an > accident - regardless of fault? > > I'm not against more driver and rider training, but it's painfully > obvious we need automobile training as bad or worse if you look at it > from a 'who does the most harm to others' perspective. > > -- Wayne > _______________________________________________ > dc-cycles mailing list > dc-cycles@XXXXXX > http://dc-cycles.org/mailman/cgi-bin/listinfo/dc-cycles > _______________________________________________ dc-cycles mailing list dc-cycles@XXXXXX http://dc-cycles.org/mailman/cgi-bin/listinfo/dc-cycles _ _ _ _ .-.-.=\-. .-.-.=\-. .-.-.=\-. .-.-.=\-. (_)=='(_) (_)=='(_) (_)=='(_) (_)=='(_) X-YMail-OSG: cfrNP3YVM1lDblHl9ZfIHkVgEPvo3vK2TGm7Smqm.QlqaBrCHSOSd1RHswAkFH3gNP0.8rDyhgs7tAN4GnZFSaQAUoDaUVHKBbIgqvDvm0vFMlBbgx8kUzFHcGTPrasN6x66cXv78v590K.U6WEEcsoXJ55_ Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 14:31:32 -0700 (PDT) From: matthew patton To: dc-cycles@XXXXXX Subject: Re: [dc-cycles] NHTSA to push for mandatory training for m/c license > politician tries to "get tough" the public sends > mixed signals. Need I > remind you of the crap-storm that ensued over "abusive > driver" penalties in the Commonwealth? I remember. FWIW I'm more than happy to leave MC or cage "training" such as it is and spend the equivalent time/money on immediate impound and imprisonment with 10+ year ban (1st offense, 2nd time life) of drunk drivers. If my tax dollars are going to get spent I want a LEO at every place that sells -OH with a field sobriety unit. I don't mind if you want to drink. But you set one foot inside your vehicle while under the influence I hope your life is worse than a prisoner's in Siberia under Stalin. And if we catch you on the road, you better wish you were already dead and buried. _______________________________________________ dc-cycles mailing list dc-cycles@XXXXXX http://dc-cycles.org/mailman/cgi-bin/listinfo/dc-cycles