From dc-cycles-request Sun Dec 2 19:14:32 2001 From: PenguinBiker@XXXXXX Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 19:14:04 EST Subject: OH NO! THEYVE KILLED....(humor (?)) To: dc-cycles@XXXXXX So I rode down to Portsmouth for an MSF conference ,and to visit some old friends, this weekend. All in all an uneventful ride (530mi.) There were only 2 items of note. First: I feel no need to mention cold, _and it is Dec??? Second: I took the scenic route back to avoid the drive between Portsmouth and Newport News. There are no words to convey just how much I hate that drive (round trip every day for 2 years.) Just after I crossed over into Maryland I saw a dead deer on the side of the road. As I rode by something caught my eye, I could not believe it so I went back for another look. I SWEAR this is true! Someone had put a big red nose on the thing. Now that is a mind! John Walters (Long John) PenguinBiker@XXXXXX Up near DC Honda ST1100X Pan European (With all of the STs all of a sudden the Pan European is now necessary {and I still like it.}) BMW R80RT 200,000+ miles Honda 1976 CR250M Motowhat racer From dc-cycles-request Sun Dec 2 20:59:20 2001 From: "Lantech (DCOP)" To: "'Dc-Cycles (E-mail)" Subject: OT- short term job opening Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 14:07:18 -0500 Hi All, I know there are a LOT of techies on this list, which is why I am posting this. Also so I am not the only motorcycle-riding-freak in the office! My contracting company is looking for someone to teach a one-week course in DreamWeaver 4.0. The class is the first week of February. Pay is somewhere in the $30/hour range (i have to check, it might be more). There is a possibility of other short-trem projects as well. Anyone interested, please contact me off-list and I'll provide whatever other details I can. Thanks! Patti the Lantech '95 Virago 750 From dc-cycles-request Mon Dec 3 09:20:02 2001 From: RichH@XXXXXX To: dc-cycles@XXXXXX Subject: RE: Eternal Damnation Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 09:18:56 -0500 Did you have a kripto on it, alarm, chained to anything, covered? -----Original Message----- From: Howard J. Koontz [mailto:HOFOJOKO@XXXXXX] Sent: Friday, November 30, 2001 7:49 PM To: bernescut@XXXXXX Cc: dc-cycles@XXXXXX Subject: Re: Eternal Damnation That is what will befall the two lifeforms who stole my red and white 1996 CBR600F3 from my parking lot last night at around 9:00 pm Hey, My god, I'm so sorry. I have felt that same way, I had my relatively new 1998 Suzuki GSF-600F Katana stolen from me when I lived in that toilet off of Briggs Cheney Road in Silver Spring. I walked out my apartment door to go take the cover off and warm her up, and found nothing but an empty parking space. Very hollowing feeling. It was my first bike, I bought it with down payment money from saving my first 5 paychecks from my first job out of college. The M.O. sounds the same as my bike, they stole a neighbors van, threw the seats out of it into the woods behind my apartment and then replaced the seats with my bike. It had an OSI cover on it and a Kryptonite disc lock. But that didn't matter; they just picked it up and took the whole thing. Eventually the Mo. Co. Po. Do. found the van, a few blocks away in a few hours. No sign of my blue bike. I miss every bike I've ever owned, even the crappy dirt bikes that would never start (like the Maico 250), but I miss the Canned Tuna the most. Good luck with your CBR. If you're a member, write to the AMA and report the bike stolen. More of us can keep an eye out that way. Howard J. Koontz 2001 Harley Davidson FLHT Electra Glide Standard 1972 Honda Z50AK3 Mini Trail Resto Project (For Sale) From dc-cycles-request Mon Dec 3 10:01:18 2001 From: "Wood, Sally" To: "'cliffzig@XXXXXX'" Cc: "'roach@XXXXXX'" , "'dc-cycles@XXXXXX'" Subject: Re: Spreevision, er Speed Channel Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 10:00:43 -0500 From: Brian Roach <> To: "Clifford Zigmond" <>, <> Subject: Re: Spreevision, er Speed Channel Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 22:45:59 -0500 On Friday 30 November 2001 22:37, Clifford Zigmond wrote: > > And now @Home is going belly up. Do I work for the only ISP making > > money? > > Can anyone suggest alternatives to @Home in light of recent developments? > I don't think I can live without my broadband :-( > I live in Alexandria, BTW. http://www.dslreports.com Having had cable access in Alex back in '95 (it sucked with Jones intercable, it was only mildly better when Comcast took over), I quickly went to DSL and love it. The above site can show you how far you are from the CO (telephone network switch) and what is available for your home. DO NOT get DSL from the phone company, they are really clueless and will also only provide ADSL (there are lots of different types and different speeds). - Roach ....Yes...and don't let that local phone company lead you into believing that only they can provide you with xDSL. It will take longer to get service from a competitive carrier but only because your phone company (who is undoubtedly engaging in monopolistic and anti-competitive practices) will stall for as long as possible. Do try to hold out for a real DSL service provider. From dc-cycles-request Mon Dec 3 10:16:07 2001 From: Cedric Bernescut To: dc-cycles@XXXXXX Subject: RE: Eternal Damnation Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 10:15:57 -0500 My F3 was covered, parked directly under the parking lot lights next to another covered bike and equipped with a Kryptonite disk lock. I wanted to put a bolt into the pavement as there is no handy device to lock it to, but the building association said it would interfere with paving operations and said no. I never went with an alarm because the dumpster is located next to the bike and every day it gets dropped by the trash truck and the car alarms nearby go off. Cedric -----Original Message----- From: RichH@XXXXXX [mailto:RichH@XXXXXX] Sent: Monday, December 03, 2001 9:19 AM To: dc-cycles@XXXXXX Subject: RE: Eternal Damnation Did you have a kripto on it, alarm, chained to anything, covered? -----Original Message----- From: Howard J. Koontz [mailto:HOFOJOKO@XXXXXX] Sent: Friday, November 30, 2001 7:49 PM To: bernescut@XXXXXX Cc: dc-cycles@XXXXXX Subject: Re: Eternal Damnation That is what will befall the two lifeforms who stole my red and white 1996 CBR600F3 from my parking lot last night at around 9:00 pm Hey, My god, I'm so sorry. I have felt that same way, I had my relatively new 1998 Suzuki GSF-600F Katana stolen from me when I lived in that toilet off of Briggs Cheney Road in Silver Spring. I walked out my apartment door to go take the cover off and warm her up, and found nothing but an empty parking space. Very hollowing feeling. It was my first bike, I bought it with down payment money from saving my first 5 paychecks from my first job out of college. The M.O. sounds the same as my bike, they stole a neighbors van, threw the seats out of it into the woods behind my apartment and then replaced the seats with my bike. It had an OSI cover on it and a Kryptonite disc lock. But that didn't matter; they just picked it up and took the whole thing. Eventually the Mo. Co. Po. Do. found the van, a few blocks away in a few hours. No sign of my blue bike. I miss every bike I've ever owned, even the crappy dirt bikes that would never start (like the Maico 250), but I miss the Canned Tuna the most. Good luck with your CBR. If you're a member, write to the AMA and report the bike stolen. More of us can keep an eye out that way. Howard J. Koontz 2001 Harley Davidson FLHT Electra Glide Standard 1972 Honda Z50AK3 Mini Trail Resto Project (For Sale) From dc-cycles-request Mon Dec 3 10:41:17 2001 From: "Paul Wilson" To: "Wood, Sally" Cc: "dc-cycles list" Subject: Re: Spreevision, er Speed Channel (non moto) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 10:44:33 -0500 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wood, Sally" > From: Brian Roach <> > Reply-To: roach@XXXXXX > To: "Clifford Zigmond" <>, <> > Subject: Re: Spreevision, er Speed Channel > Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 22:45:59 -0500 > > On Friday 30 November 2001 22:37, Clifford Zigmond wrote: > > > And now @Home is going belly up. Do I work for the only ISP making > > > money? > > > > Can anyone suggest alternatives to @Home in light of recent developments? > > I don't think I can live without my broadband :-( > > I live in Alexandria, BTW. > > http://www.dslreports.com > > Having had cable access in Alex back in '95 (it sucked with Jones > intercable, > it was only mildly better when Comcast took over), I quickly went to DSL and > love it. The above site can show you how far you are from the CO (telephone > network switch) and what is available for your home. DO NOT get DSL from the > phone company, they are really clueless and will also only provide ADSL > (there are lots of different types and different speeds). > > - Roach > > > ....Yes...and don't let that local phone company lead you into believing > that only they can provide you with xDSL. It will take longer to get > service from a competitive carrier but only because your phone company (who > is undoubtedly engaging in monopolistic and anti-competitive practices) will > stall for as long as possible. Do try to hold out for a real DSL service > provider. On the other hand, ADSL (asymmetric DSL, wide downlink, narrow uplink) is fine for the average home user for surfing and email unless you're running a high volume web server. Realize that there are three parties to a DSL connection: Ma Bell's copper to the Central Office, the DCLEC (Digital or Data Competitive Local Exchange Carrier, the folks that connect the copper to fiber network connection to the 'net) and an ISP. Any one of those doesn't go its job properly or goes belly up and you're out of action. Now Ma Bell isn't going out of business any time soon but many of the DCLECs and ISPs are on shaky financial ground. Yes, Verizon generally sucks and isn't very good at running an ISP, but they're going to stay in business and you get the copper, DCLEC and ISP bundled in one company. Northpoint was a DCLEC that went belly up and plugged that plug on a lot of DSL users. The ongoing @Home ISP bankruptcy fiasco could leave 4 million cable modem internet subscribers in the dark. It's a volatile industry and you play Russian roulette trying to find a reliable service. Paul in DC From dc-cycles-request Mon Dec 3 11:17:51 2001 Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 11:16:41 -0500 Subject: Two wheeled transportation of the future From: Sean Jordan To: dc-cycles@XXXXXX, Michael Jordan Evidently, word of this device has been going around for sometime. (I have missed it completely until now.) Found these links posted on Slashdot this morning.....looks really cool! http://www.time.com/time/2001/segway/index.html http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,186660-1,00.html http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20011201/tc/tech_kamen_invention_dc_1.html Sean Jordan Jordan Racing / DC-Cycles Racing '90 Yamaha FZR400 http://www.angelfire.com/mac/eternity23/jordanracing.html From dc-cycles-request Mon Dec 3 13:14:10 2001 From: "Paul Wilson" To: Cc: "dc-cycles list" Subject: Turn in/Givi gas mileage/BMW test ride (long) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 13:17:28 -0500 I rode down to the MSF instructor conference in Portsmouth VA over the weekend and had the opportunity to go on a spirited back road Sunday morning ride with a buddy who rides a '02 BMW R1150R Roadster. He also made a sound movie of me riding with the VFR's new Micron pipe, which sounds incredible in the tunnels down there. http://members.home.net/4motorcycles/pauls_bike.mov After hitting some twisties, we took a road through the Great Dismal Swamp (aptly named BTW) that was wide, straight and fast. Anyway I began to notice some new things about the VFR, particularly slow turn in with the Givi bags. Press the hand-grip and you can feel the bike lean over for a split second and then begin to turn. You actually ride down the road momentarily in a lean without turning. Try this on a long straight road sometime. Loaded Givi side bags increase the time lag. I've identified the syndrome, but what is the cure? Shimming the rear shock perhaps? I also notice the red low fuel idiot light coming on sooner (at about 180 to 190 miles) when the side bags are on. There is a slight mileage penalty due to increasing weight and aerodynamic drag, but that didn't account for all of it. The red light comes on, I stop for gas and notice it only takes 4.8 or 4.9 gallons. So I put my thinking cap on and figure out it's probably the bags causing the front end to rise up a little bit, making the gas gauge and low fuel indicator to read low. Tom and I swapped bikes for a while since I'd not ridden the BMW Roadster before. The seating position brought back memories of my '91 Nighthawk, but the similarities ended there. The upright bars means steering takes a little more effort than the VFR's sportier ergos (MCN has a good piece in the Dec. '01 issue on why this is so) but once the bike turns the suspension is utterly smooth. The Para-lever and Tele-lever suspension means no wallow. That's probably the single most impressive thing about this bike. BMW clearly has the suspension nailed since the Roadster outweighs the VFR by a good 25-30 pounds (dry) and the Roadster carries it very well. The longitudinal crankshaft means the bike tilts to the right when you spin up the engine, both at a stop and also during engine braking. That takes a little getting used to. The heated grips are the bomb. I'd love it if they were an OEM option on the VFR. And the power-assisted ABS brakes, wow. Even think about stopping and you stop, right now. I did notice a lot of buzz from the engine at about 5K and the mirrors get blurry. Must be a built-in shift indicator. :) Time to upshift. And you gotta love that torque down low. Roll-ons at 3K are handled without complaint. The VFR is not happy in that range unless you're coming to a stop. A couple of minor quibbles are BMW's slightly bizarre switch arrangement and the shifter ergos. Go for the horn, oops, that's the left turn signal. Go for the turn signal: bleeeep! The switches need to be farther apart or have a distinctive feel so you don't have to take your eyes off the road. I also like to keep my thumb on the signal button for the entire duration of a lane change, which is not possible with this arrangement. I feel like BMW tried to solve a problem with the single button turn signal switch that didn't need solving. Why have three large buttons on two different hands when a single small button does the job? I find going to the opposite hand to cancel a left turn signal to be a bit of a bother. I also felt like I had to really bend my ankle and point my toes to the ground to get my toe under the shifter. It takes a little extra effort to lift the lever in an unnatural movement that our leg muscles are not suited for. I suppose a day or two in the saddle (which is very comfortable and well made BTW) would put both complaints to rest. I could see spending a lot more time on this bike, but I still enjoyed getting back on the old reliable VFR. My friend did comment how buttery smooth the VFR's gearbox is by comparison and I've grown to prefer the more varied, slightly forward or more aggressively tucked in riding position depending on need, that the VFR affords as opposed to the more upright "standard" position of the Roadster. The Beemer does have a lot to recommend it though, particularly in the brakes, suspension, torquey engine, overall fit and finish and attention to detail. I had a beautiful ride back to DC. Tom led me to Surry (http://www.wilsonline.org/pUL2.jpg) we said our good-byes and I took the ferry across the James from there and picked up the Colonial Parkway on the opposite side, rode to Yorktown and then took VA 14 and 721 through the Middle Peninsula as an alternate to US 17. It's a beautiful road: wide, smooth with long sweepers and the occasional 25 mph sharp turn. No traffic either, though I narrowly missed an "opportunity" to contribute to the King and Queen County patrolmen's Christmas fund. Overall a great weekend and in early December, no less. Paul in DC 95 VFR750F www.wilsonline.org Join the VFR750 list >>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vfr750 From dc-cycles-request Mon Dec 3 13:26:25 2001 Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 13:26:12 -0500 From: Mike Jay To: dc-cycles@XXXXXX Subject: Bike Shop Quest Hi folks, Looking for a shop in Herdon/Reston area to work on a ZN700A2 (1982 Kawasaki LTD 700 cc) bike, any preferred shops? Has anyone gone recently to Cycle Sport in Herdon? Has anyone used the Kawasaki shop on the section of Route 606 between the Herdon PKWY and Route 28? Any other shops in the Herdon/Reston area? Rather than bore you with the list of fixes I am just looking for a feel of shops from my fellow listers. For example, I know many listers in the past have had "warm glowing" feelings about a particular Falls Church bike shop ;) As a fallback, I would consider a Leasburg shop. Heck, I would ride out to Warrenton or Winchester if the shop came that highly recommended. Thanks, mikejay From dc-cycles-request Mon Dec 3 15:19:03 2001 From: "Paul Wilson" To: "Cedric Bernescut" , "dc-cycles list" Subject: Re: Eternal Damnation Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 15:18:58 -0500 Sorry to hear of your loss and unfortunately an after the fact discussion of alarms isn't going to do you much good. :( Many bike alarms have a tilt sensor that's independent of the shock sensor. I dialed down the sensitivity on the shock sensor for the reasons you cite. Garbage trucks and LEO Harleys used to set it off. Anyway, the tilt sensor triggers the alarm when the bike is tilted upright. You can also get an alarm like the Scorpio with a page function. I think the Scorpio also has an ignition disable feature. Honda specs an internal alarm and ignition disabler in Europe, but not in the USA, for their higher end sportbikes. Apparently the UK has an enormous bike theft problem. I have the Gorilla cycle alarm (cheap but effective.) It and a disk lock appear to have thwarted one theft attempt on my VFR last summer. You might also try chaining the bike to another vehicle if the HOA won't let you mount a tie down permanently. Paul in DC 95 VFR750F ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cedric Bernescut" > My F3 was covered, parked directly under the parking lot lights next to > another covered bike and equipped with a Kryptonite disk lock. I wanted to > put a bolt into the pavement as there is no handy device to lock it to, but > the building association said it would interfere with paving operations and > said no. I never went with an alarm because the dumpster is located next to > the bike and every day it gets dropped by the trash truck and the car alarms > nearby go off. > Cedric > > -----Original Message----- > From: RichH@XXXXXX [mailto:RichH@XXXXXX] > > Did you have a kripto on it, alarm, chained to anything, covered? > From dc-cycles-request Mon Dec 3 15:19:00 2001 From: "Paul Wilson" To: "dc-cycles list" Subject: Re: Two wheeled transportation of the future Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 15:17:38 -0500 Heavens, the length people will go to in order to avoid putting the two wheels in a single track, which has been happening with great success for at least the last 125 years. Hmm, self-balancing, isn't that what our inner ears are for? People can been using this amazing built in faculty on "vehicles" since the first primitive human hopped aboard a horse. Why is this suddenly a "breakthrough?" To me it looks like a solution in search of a problem. With a top speed of 12 mph, why not just get a good quality bicycle for $200 that can easily do twice that speed and get some exercise in the bargain? Or a $500 100 mpg moped capable of 35 mph for crying out loud? I'd hate to try to mix in traffic on this thing, but riding it on the sidewalk is even worse in my opinion, not to mention illegal. Supposedly it cost $100 million to develop this Edsel, which might have some specialty applications in warehouses and hospitals, but it's hardly a solution to urban transportation problems. Gee whiz factor aside, it's gotta be one of the most costly acts of masturbation since Ross Perot's presidential campaigns. :) Other than that, I think it's a really neat idea! Paul in DC 95 VFR750F www.wilsonline.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sean Jordan" > Evidently, word of this device has been going around for sometime. (I > have missed it completely until now.) Found these links posted on > Slashdot this morning.....looks really cool! > > > http://www.time.com/time/2001/segway/index.html > > http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,186660-1,00.html > > http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20011201/tc/tech_kamen_invention_dc_1.html From dc-cycles-request Mon Dec 3 15:41:14 2001 Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 15:41:06 -0500 From: Mike Jay To: dc-cycles list Subject: Re: Two wheeled transportation of the future Bring back Gordon and Smith Fibreflex with Bennetts and Bones :) Paul Wilson wrote: > > Heavens, the length people will go to in order to avoid putting the two > wheels in a single track, which has been happening with great success for at > least the last 125 years. Hmm, self-balancing, isn't that what our inner > ears are for? People can been using this amazing built in faculty on > "vehicles" since the first primitive human hopped > aboard a horse. Why is this suddenly a "breakthrough?" To me it looks like > a solution in search of a problem. > > With a top speed of 12 mph, why not just get a good quality bicycle for $200 > that can easily do twice that speed and get some exercise in the bargain? > Or a $500 100 mpg moped capable of 35 mph for crying out loud? I'd hate to > try to mix in traffic on this thing, but riding it on the sidewalk is even > worse in my opinion, not to mention illegal. > Supposedly it cost $100 million to develop this Edsel, which might have some > specialty applications in warehouses and hospitals, but it's hardly a > solution to urban transportation problems. Gee whiz factor aside, it's > gotta be one of the most costly acts of masturbation since Ross Perot's > presidential campaigns. :) Other than that, I think it's a really neat > idea! > > Paul in DC > 95 VFR750F > www.wilsonline.org > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Sean Jordan" > > > Evidently, word of this device has been going around for sometime. (I > > have missed it completely until now.) Found these links posted on > > Slashdot this morning.....looks really cool! > > > > > > http://www.time.com/time/2001/segway/index.html > > > > http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,186660-1,00.html > > > > http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20011201/tc/tech_kamen_invention_dc_1.html From dc-cycles-request Mon Dec 3 15:48:18 2001 Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 15:44:08 -0500 To: dc-cycles@XXXXXX From: Rob Winters Subject: Re: Two wheeled transportation of the future At 03:17 PM 12/3/2001, Paul Wilson wrote: >I'd hate to >try to mix in traffic on this thing, but riding it on the sidewalk is even >worse in my opinion, not to mention illegal. Sidewalks! Oh, man, that ain't the half of it. WATCH THE VIDEO at their site! It's got people in crowds, following pedestrians close behind, staying on the things in elevators, and riding them all the way to their desks! It's hilarious. ... ... I foresee a long string of liability lawsuits, leading to the demise of this company. /// Rob From dc-cycles-request Mon Dec 3 15:58:51 2001 From: "Jon Strang" To: "dc-cycles list" Subject: RE: Two wheeled transportation of the future Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 15:57:05 -0500 one word: curbs. Ok, more words. "IT," a symbol of Silicon Valley's (hype == substance) arrogance/misconception, is what we're going to "...erect entire cities around..."? Yeah, whatever. Let's put this into digital terms: Interface with legacy systems. At least the motorized (gasoline-powered) Razor scooters I've seen don't need recharging and can do about 20mph. And at 10% of the cost. $3,000 bucks, runs on batteries, no faster than a slug on a bicycle. Can't do wheelies. What the hell? You're right, Paul. $100M worth of masturbation. --jon 01 Suz Bandit 1200 (can do wheelies) > -----Original Message----- > From: Paul Wilson [mailto:pawilson@XXXXXX] > Sent: Monday, December 03, 2001 3:18 PM > To: dc-cycles list > Subject: Re: Two wheeled transportation of the future > > > Heavens, the length people will go to in order to avoid putting the two > wheels in a single track, which has been happening with great > success for at > least the last 125 years. Hmm, self-balancing, isn't that what our inner > ears are for? People can been using this amazing built in faculty on > "vehicles" since the first primitive human hopped > aboard a horse. Why is this suddenly a "breakthrough?" To me it > looks like > a solution in search of a problem. > > With a top speed of 12 mph, why not just get a good quality > bicycle for $200 > that can easily do twice that speed and get some exercise in the bargain? > Or a $500 100 mpg moped capable of 35 mph for crying out loud? > I'd hate to > try to mix in traffic on this thing, but riding it on the sidewalk is even > worse in my opinion, not to mention illegal. > Supposedly it cost $100 million to develop this Edsel, which > might have some > specialty applications in warehouses and hospitals, but it's hardly a > solution to urban transportation problems. Gee whiz factor aside, it's > gotta be one of the most costly acts of masturbation since Ross Perot's > presidential campaigns. :) Other than that, I think it's a really neat > idea! > > Paul in DC > 95 VFR750F > www.wilsonline.org > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Sean Jordan" > > > Evidently, word of this device has been going around for sometime. (I > > have missed it completely until now.) Found these links posted on > > Slashdot this morning.....looks really cool! > > > > > > http://www.time.com/time/2001/segway/index.html > > > > http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,186660-1,00.html > > > > http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20011201/tc/tech_kamen_invention_dc_1.html From dc-cycles-request Mon Dec 3 16:02:40 2001 From: RichH@XXXXXX To: dc-cycles@XXXXXX Subject: RE: Bike Shop Quest Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 16:01:49 -0500 I've used both Rhoads Cycles and Cycle Sport. Rhoads has quoted me cheaper prices. I bought my bike used from Cycle Sport, 2 years ago. I have no complaints with either. I've bought gear from Loudoun Motorsport (Honda, Suzuki, in Leesburg), they seem like good people. -----Original Message----- From: Mike Jay [mailto:mikejay@XXXXXX] Sent: Monday, December 03, 2001 1:26 PM To: dc-cycles@XXXXXX Subject: Bike Shop Quest Hi folks, Looking for a shop in Herdon/Reston area to work on a ZN700A2 (1982 Kawasaki LTD 700 cc) bike, any preferred shops? Has anyone gone recently to Cycle Sport in Herdon? Has anyone used the Kawasaki shop on the section of Route 606 between the Herdon PKWY and Route 28? Any other shops in the Herdon/Reston area? Rather than bore you with the list of fixes I am just looking for a feel of shops from my fellow listers. For example, I know many listers in the past have had "warm glowing" feelings about a particular Falls Church bike shop ;) As a fallback, I would consider a Leasburg shop. Heck, I would ride out to Warrenton or Winchester if the shop came that highly recommended. Thanks, mikejay From dc-cycles-request Mon Dec 3 22:33:34 2001 Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 22:06:10 -0500 To: dc-cycles@XXXXXX From: Bob Meyer Subject: RE: Bike Shop Quest Not in Herndon/Reston, but I've always gotten good work from Manassas Honda/Kawasaki. They're good people, too, and it's kind of an old fashioned, small dealership, not a mega-dealer like so many of the new ones. They're offering 15% off parts and labor to "preferred customers" between 11/23 and 2/15, so if you go there ask about it. I don't know if it's still there, but quite a few years ago I had some minor work done at a little Kawi shop off Route 50, right near Fairfax Circle. They did okay, but I never had warm fuzzies about them. Bob Meyer At 04:01 PM 12/3/01 -0500, RichH@XXXXXX wrote: >I've used both Rhoads Cycles and Cycle Sport. Rhoads has quoted me cheaper >prices. I bought my bike used from Cycle Sport, 2 years ago. I have no >complaints with either. I've bought gear from Loudoun Motorsport (Honda, >Suzuki, in Leesburg), they seem like good people. > > -----Original Message----- >From: Mike Jay [mailto:mikejay@XXXXXX] >Sent: Monday, December 03, 2001 1:26 PM >To: dc-cycles@XXXXXX >Subject: Bike Shop Quest > >Hi folks, > >Looking for a shop in Herdon/Reston area to work on a ZN700A2 (1982 >Kawasaki LTD 700 cc) bike, any preferred shops? > >Has anyone gone recently to Cycle Sport in Herdon? > >Has anyone used the Kawasaki shop on the section of Route 606 between >the Herdon PKWY and Route 28? > >Any other shops in the Herdon/Reston area? > >Rather than bore you with the list of fixes I am just looking for a feel >of shops from my fellow listers. For example, I know many listers in the >past have had "warm glowing" feelings about a particular Falls Church >bike shop ;) > >As a fallback, I would consider a Leasburg shop. Heck, I would ride out >to Warrenton or Winchester if the shop came that highly recommended. > >Thanks, >mikejay From dc-cycles-request Tue Dec 4 08:30:59 2001 Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 05:30:57 -0800 (PST) From: Trey Herb Subject: looking for parking in Silver Spring To: DC-Cycles I started a new job near Georgia Avenue and Colesville Rd. I am trying to find some free parking for the bike. Thanks Trey __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Buy the perfect holiday gifts at Yahoo! Shopping. http://shopping.yahoo.com From dc-cycles-request Tue Dec 4 08:42:12 2001 Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 05:42:11 -0800 (PST) From: Scratch Subject: 'nuther helmet cam mega download To: DCC http://www.digitoolsdesign.com/Test_02/Test_02_webstream.mpg Very nice. But I wonder why the 2 sport(s) bike web-movies I've seen both use such lame music. Not a Marshall amp or Gibson guitar to be heard anywhere! ;) Rich __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Buy the perfect holiday gifts at Yahoo! Shopping. http://shopping.yahoo.com From dc-cycles-request Tue Dec 4 08:46:37 2001 Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 08:46:30 -0500 (EST) From: Kirk Roy To: Scratch cc: DCC Subject: Re: 'nuther helmet cam mega download On Tue, 4 Dec 2001, Scratch wrote: > Not a Marshall amp or Gibson guitar to be heard anywhere! ;) Get with the program, Rich! This is a Mesa Boogie amp/PRS guitar world we're living in now! (I've got the PRS but sold my Boogie back in july...). Kirk From dc-cycles-request Tue Dec 4 11:02:37 2001 Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 10:55:53 -0500 To: "Paul Wilson" , dc-cycles@XXXXXX From: Justin Lemrow Subject: Re: Turn in/Givi gas mileage/BMW test ride (long) Paul, sounds like a good trip. Glad you enjoyed yourself. :) FWIW, i've found that yes, the GIVI does reduce gas milage a little bit, and, although i can't prove it, i secretly think it's better with the side bags then the top case, but oh well. i've never really noticed any change in turn-in. I crank the rear suspension up 1 or 2 clicks depending on weight/number of bags. don't know if that's been the magic-cure, but it's worked fine for me. Rob just recently got the full GIVI set up too. He might be able to comment on the difference. i may have just gotten used to it ;) Justin 1999 VFR 800 Northern VA/Washington DC From dc-cycles-request Tue Dec 4 12:50:25 2001 Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 12:53:02 -0500 From: Todd Schroder To: dc-cycles@XXXXXX Subject: Cam Welding / Valve Work Can anyone recommend a local (NoVA) shop that resurfaces cams and rebuilds heads? I am restoring a 1975 Honda XL350 that is in need of some head work. Thanks, Todd 1996 KLR650 1993 EX500 1979 KZ400 LTD 1979 GTMX 1975 XL350 From dc-cycles-request Tue Dec 4 13:49:00 2001 From: "Rob Keiser" To: firblt@XXXXXX, pawilson@XXXXXX, dc-cycles@XXXXXX Subject: Re: Turn in/Givi gas mileage/BMW test ride (long) Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 13:37:40 -0500 Just get an 800. They get better mileage anyway! ;) (sorry, Rich, had to say it!) But seriously, I don't really keep track of my miles per gallon, so I can't really comment on how it changes with the Givi's. I imagine it would be worse with the extra drag and weight, but probably not too drastic. Aside from long trips, I usually don't have any bags on it, or maybe just the topcase only. Rob '98 VFR800 From: Justin Lemrow To: "Paul Wilson" , dc-cycles@XXXXXX Subject: Re: Turn in/Givi gas mileage/BMW test ride (long) Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 10:55:53 -0500 Paul, sounds like a good trip. Glad you enjoyed yourself. :) FWIW, i've found that yes, the GIVI does reduce gas milage a little bit, and, although i can't prove it, i secretly think it's better with the side bags then the top case, but oh well. i've never really noticed any change in turn-in. I crank the rear suspension up 1 or 2 clicks depending on weight/number of bags. don't know if that's been the magic-cure, but it's worked fine for me. Rob just recently got the full GIVI set up too. He might be able to comment on the difference. i may have just gotten used to it ;) Justin 1999 VFR 800 Northern VA/Washington DC _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From dc-cycles-request Tue Dec 4 14:42:43 2001 Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 11:42:39 -0800 (PST) From: Tom Knapik Subject: Slightly OT To: dc-cycles@XXXXXX I have a set of craftsman welding tourches (and cutting tourches) along with the gages, tanks, etc. that I need to part with. Anyone interested, contact me directly. I'm asking $100.00 for the set. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Buy the perfect holiday gifts at Yahoo! Shopping. http://shopping.yahoo.com From dc-cycles-request Tue Dec 4 14:46:43 2001 Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 11:46:41 -0800 (PST) From: Trey Herb Subject: Silver Spring Parking To: DC-Cycles I am looking for some free daytime parking near Georgia Ave and Colesville Rd. Trey __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Buy the perfect holiday gifts at Yahoo! Shopping. http://shopping.yahoo.com From dc-cycles-request Tue Dec 4 21:38:05 2001 To: dc-cycles@XXXXXX Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 21:37:48 -0500 From: "BR VMI-1996" X-Sent-Mail: off Subject: Good Twisties X-Sender-Ip: 65.129.38.38 Content-Language: en other than 29/211 ... are there any good twisting rides within about 50 - 100 miles from here? Friend just got a GSXR1000 and wanted to hit some good twisties. -Matt 01 Bandit 600s Get 250 color business cards for FREE! http://businesscards.lycos.com/vp/fastpath/ From dc-cycles-request Tue Dec 4 23:02:49 2001 Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 23:00:12 -0500 To: dc-cycles@XXXXXX From: Troutman Subject: Re: Good Twisties At 09:37 PM 12/4/2001, BR VMI-1996 wrote: >other than 29/211 ... are there any good twisting rides within about 50 - >100 miles from here? Friend just got a GSXR1000 and wanted to hit some >good twisties. Check the www.dccycles.com site for a ton of routes within short drives. 211 is a blast, but for me the real run is the VA Byway on the way to 211. Ask Danny Thompson for the exact routes from Warrenton - I only know them by visual. ______________________________________ Mike Troutman mike@XXXXXX http://www.troutman.org It's lonely at the top, but you eat better From dc-cycles-request Wed Dec 5 00:03:01 2001 Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 21:02:51 -0800 (PST) From: matthew patton Subject: Wanted: copy of early 90's GSXR manual To: dc-cycles@XXXXXX I just need a dozen or so pages out of a gsxr maint manual for early 90's GSXR's that describes (with pics) the front forks. Also data on the front wheel and bearings would be nice. SImilarly for a '95/96 upside-down fork GSXR. What Suz shops around here have a clue and a full set of 'fiche? I probably ought to just pop in on CAD in Gaithersburg... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Buy the perfect holiday gifts at Yahoo! Shopping. http://shopping.yahoo.com From dc-cycles-request Wed Dec 5 09:09:51 2001 Subject: RE: Wanted: copy of early 90's GSXR manual From: "cvkgpena@XXXXXX" Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 09:10:11 -0500 To: "pattonme@XXXXXX" , "dc-cycles@XXXXXX" Matt, What exactly is it that you want to know? I don't have a manual, but -- as you know -- I used to have a '93 GSXR750. How "early" 90s? I have a "history" of the GSXR that describes (and gives technical specs) all the various models (through '96 model year, which is when Suzuki introduced the "hump back" SRAD). Here's what I remember, if it helps: 90-92 were air cooled GSXRs (in the US). Don't know if the double-cradle frames were steel or aluminum, but I think still steel. Forks I think were still conventional right side up. I don't know if they were fully adjustable or not. Can't remember the fork tube diameter. 93 was when the engines switched to water cooled (in the US, the year prior for the rest of the world). Still the double cradle frame, but definitely aluminum. Definitely upside down forks. Showa. Fully adjustable for rebound, compression, and preload. I think 41mm, but not positive. 94-95 were essentially minor changes of the 93 model. I think they did change the fork diameter to 43mm. 96 is when they ditched the double cradle frame and went with the perimeter frame. Essentially, an all new bike. But I don't know (off the top of my head) what changes they made to the forks. I'm pretty sure they were still Showa. 97 is the same as 96 pretty much. 98-99 had EFI. 2000 introduced the GSXR as we now know it. I'd be happy to check my book for whatever relevant facts you're looking for. Also, give Denny at Crossroads Cycle a call (703) 820-3711. He used to race and race-prep a lot of GSXRs (including older ones) and is pretty knowledgeable about the entire line. Chuck Original Message: ----------------- From: matthew patton pattonme@XXXXXX Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 21:02:51 -0800 (PST) To: dc-cycles@XXXXXX Subject: Wanted: copy of early 90's GSXR manual I just need a dozen or so pages out of a gsxr maint manual for early 90's GSXR's that describes (with pics) the front forks. Also data on the front wheel and bearings would be nice. SImilarly for a '95/96 upside-down fork GSXR. What Suz shops around here have a clue and a full set of 'fiche? I probably ought to just pop in on CAD in Gaithersburg... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Buy the perfect holiday gifts at Yahoo! Shopping. http://shopping.yahoo.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From dc-cycles-request Wed Dec 5 10:52:26 2001 Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 07:52:17 -0800 (PST) From: Tom Gimer Subject: Re: Good Twisties To: vmi-1996@XXXXXX, dc-cycles@XXXXXX while nothing close to dc really compares to the west virginia (and virginia) mountain roads, the clifton, virginia area is pretty cool. northern montgomery county and frederick county, maryland also have some decent roads. -- tg --- BR VMI-1996 wrote: > other than 29/211 ... are there any good twisting rides > within about 50 - 100 miles from here? Friend just got a > GSXR1000 and wanted to hit some good twisties. > > -Matt > 01 Bandit 600s __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Buy the perfect holiday gifts at Yahoo! Shopping. http://shopping.yahoo.com From dc-cycles-request Wed Dec 5 11:13:43 2001 From: Gaske David G DLVA To: dc-cycles@XXXXXX Subject: RE: Good Twisties Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 11:13:39 -0500 Also try rt.619 on the northside of Quantico Marine Base. Rt. 218 from Fredericksburg to Dalhgren, then the Sothern MD roads back to the beltway. dg -----Original Message----- From: Tom Gimer [mailto:t_gimer@XXXXXX] Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 10:52 AM To: vmi-1996@XXXXXX; dc-cycles@XXXXXX Subject: Re: Good Twisties while nothing close to dc really compares to the west virginia (and virginia) mountain roads, the clifton, virginia area is pretty cool. northern montgomery county and frederick county, maryland also have some decent roads. -- tg --- BR VMI-1996 wrote: > other than 29/211 ... are there any good twisting rides > within about 50 - 100 miles from here? Friend just got a > GSXR1000 and wanted to hit some good twisties. > > -Matt > 01 Bandit 600s __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Buy the perfect holiday gifts at Yahoo! Shopping. http://shopping.yahoo.com From dc-cycles-request Wed Dec 5 11:29:59 2001 From: "Greg Thompson" To: Subject: Re: Bike Shop Quest Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 11:18:03 -0500 From: "Bob Meyer" > Not in Herndon/Reston, but I've always gotten good work from Manassas > Honda/Kawasaki. when i took my '90 cb-1 (running perfectly at the time) in to have the valve clearances adjusted, they: a. broke off part of the airbox lid, thereby leaving a nice hole in the airbox. they didn't bother to tell me this when i picked the bike up. b. didn't run the wiring harness in the little track around the airbox. as a result, it was being pinched between the airbox and the frame. c. "installed" the rubber heat-sheild between the top of the engine and the bottom of the airbox by cramming the thing in there. this restricted the airflow into the airbox. d. fucked up the bike's carburation (i guess) to the point where once the engine warmed up, it had no power at all below about 5k rpm and stalled out at almost every stop. the day after i picked it up i took off the tank and noticed a, b, and c. they were plenty polite when i called them up and told them how unsatisfied i was (note: i was extremely calm and didn't drop the f-bomb or anything). they said to bring it in and they'd look at it. after they saw it, they said "leave it here. we'll replace the airbox lid and make it run well again." after way too many weeks of perfect spring riding weather, they finally said i could pick it up. they claimed they'd synch'd the carbs after installing the new airbox and that it ran perfectly. it's far better, but after 20 minutes or so of riding it starts idling crappily and stalls out periodically. it wasn't worth my time to keep schlepping out there to have them fiddle with it again and still not fix it, so i've just been living with it and have resolved to fixing it myself. this leads to another question i have: where can i get a carb rebuild kit for a '90 cb-1? my winter project is to fully service the carbs. -- -greg From dc-cycles-request Wed Dec 5 11:42:36 2001 From: "Paul Wilson" To: "dc-cycles list" Subject: NYC Bike Show Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 11:45:47 -0500 Due to the bike show's scheduling during the holidays (Dec. 28 - 30), my wife and I are going to spend the weekend of Dec. 29 and 30th in New York. Lots of Midtown hotels have deep discounted room rates right now. I'm wondering how many of the DC-Cycles crew are going up? I remember a bus charter two years ago. Anything similar this year? The organizers are saying it's "bigger and better than ever" due to the fact they could get more space in the Javits Center this time around. http://www.motorcycleshows.com/newyork/home.asp Paul in DC 95 VFR From dc-cycles-request Wed Dec 5 12:29:49 2001 From: daniel_ex250@XXXXXX To: dc-cycles@XXXXXX Subject: oh speaking fo tickets Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 12:33:06 -0800 A P.G. county cop hit me with a wreckless driving ticket. What did I do? I used too good braking technique. A small endo with the back tire coming up about a foot off the ground. (stopping at a red light) I asked the cop what I did "you flipped the front brake lever thingee and made the bike come up like this" and he moved his hand from horizontal to diagonal.. ( Good to know we have such articulate cops right? ) I asked him the definition of wreckless driving.. he said any act which endangered others.. I thought we had a law against vague laws? it's funny, no one seemed to be endangered. He did not issue me any ohter ticket.. but a couple of lies like.. "We got calls of bikes doing stunts" that's funny, the five or six other officers we just passed (traffic ticket day in that area) didn't seem to catch that one on the radio! " if a person on a bike is not the registered owner we can impound it" (the person who stopped with me, didn't violate any traffic laws).. Oh really? so no crime is committed,and the bike wasn't stolen, and you can impound it? why dont' you suck my..... Of course I wasn't rude or anything and dind't admit any guilt, was cooperative and polite, but this guy had ego problems as soon as he got out the car.. he runs over to me says "you been doing stunts" and points his finger at me... some old dude witha couple stripes on his arm, who didn't seem to know what he was doing.. I htink his supervisor came and helped him out. He seemed like he was transfered from another part of the country and didn't know what he was talking about/ doing. note we were riding organized (because of the police presence and new riders with us), and I was the last bike in about six bikes.. so pulling up to the light last, there was already a spot there for me at the back, i coasted up, applied brakes hard, and stopped at the back of the pack. Back wheel came up about a foot. Didn't even speed, but it was enough momentum to get the wheel in the air. I figure if i hadn't have used my brakes and plowed into the bike infront of me, i'd be charged with failure to control speed to avoid an accident.. if I use my brakes too well and control my speed to the best of the bikes ability, I get a ticket for wreckless go figure! So has anyone heard of a legal defense for this? He fined me 275 big ones, and I really don't want a reckless on my record. Danny can't stand cops who don't know the principle of the law they enforce From dc-cycles-request Wed Dec 5 12:47:03 2001 From: daniel_ex250@XXXXXX To: dc-cycles@XXXXXX Subject: gun thread - southern maryland Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 12:50:20 -0800 I find myself more and more in southern maryland.. and have come across a few parks in the backwoods.. also hearing gunshots on private owners lands... So being that shootin in the woods is cheaper/more fun than shooting at a range.. Anyone know anything about informal target shooting in southern maryland? I think there used to be places you go could go. Also I'm pretty sure the law states no shooting within 500 feet of a home. (and thus any other dwelling).. but i'm wondering if anyone knows any places? knows any laws regarding NOT shooting in places deemed as parks. Note: i'm not talking about the feel good parks with the picnic grounds and camp grounds and all that.. i'm talking about the side of the road dirt spots they throw a sign up saying 'so and so regional park" in front of some woods... I'm just trying to do some fun target shooting, not do any drinking, not leave any mess, and be completely legal without any discussions with officer friendly. (that includes transporting the firearm in the trunk, unloaded, encased). any help would be appreicated. THanks Danny From dc-cycles-request Wed Dec 5 12:55:44 2001 From: daniel_ex250@XXXXXX To: Cc: dc-cycles@XXXXXX Subject: Re: Eternal Damnation... Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 12:59:01 -0800 I realize i'm late but... 5 bills? to beat down bike theives? that's an offer i can't refuse godfather! (need the money:) ) by the way check out this state farm story.... a lady friend of mine gets her honda f4 stolen... an insurance agent who works for her insurance company state farm, happens to find the bike under a cover.. supposedly the police recover it, the bike goes to auction, and is sold.. perfectly entact... months later after the owner is payed off, she is notified about it... if that doesn't reak "inside job"... what does it reak? Danny |> who's goal? Not mine. it's not even (never was) my bike, |>& I want nothing to do with forgiveness I'd pay the cops at least 5 |>bills to deliver a wood shampoo that they'd never forget if they were |>caught... but that's just my opinion... |> |>Good luck. |>Hope you're back on 2 wheels soon. |> |>Dave Yates From dc-cycles-request Wed Dec 5 12:56:43 2001 From: daniel_ex250@XXXXXX To: PenguinBiker@XXXXXX Cc: dc-cycles@XXXXXX Subject: Re: OH NO! THEYVE KILLED....(humor (?)) Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 13:00:00 -0800 |>Now that is a mind! ROTFL!!!! From dc-cycles-request Wed Dec 5 12:59:10 2001 Subject: RE: gun thread - southern maryland From: "sdave@XXXXXX" Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 12:59:10 -0500 To: "dc-cycles@XXXXXX" Daniel baited a gun thread - I find myself more and more in southern maryland and have come across a few parks in the backwoods.. also hearing gunshots on private owners lands... So being that shootin in the woods is cheaper/more fun than shooting at a range.. Anyone know anything about informal target shooting in southern maryland? I think there used to be places you go could go. There are - one off 225, the other off 6, both on state land. the one off 225 is Myrtle Grove Wildlife management area. It has a shotgun & (up to) 100 yard outdoor 8 lane range open to the public. There's a fee / year, but there's never anyone there to collect it. It's 15 or 25 / year if you don't have a current hunting license. There's usually a wait on weekends. The ranger there is Dan Estevez (or used to be) he's kind of a dick, but other than that, it's a nice facility. It's off 225, about 5 miles from 210 or a few more from 301. Also I'm pretty sure the law states no shooting within 500 feet of a home. (and thus any other dwelling).. More than that I think... but i'm wondering if anyone knows any places? knows any laws regarding NOT shooting in places deemed as parks. Note: i'm not talking about the feel good parks with the picnic grounds and camp grounds and all that.. i'm talking about the side of the road dirt spots they throw a sign up saying 'so and so regional park" in front of some woods... Even in Southern MD, the anti gun culture is infecting the area like a cancer. If you're caught shooting in MD and are breaking no other laws, you'll at least be arrested for disturbing the peace, so they can confiscate the firearms. I'm just trying to do some fun target shooting, not do any drinking, not leave any mess, and be completely legal without any discussions with officer friendly. (that includes transporting the firearm in the trunk, unloaded, encased). any help would be appreicated. THanks Use only designated ranges. Dave Danny -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From dc-cycles-request Wed Dec 5 13:16:54 2001 From: "Roy D. Turner, Esq." To: , Subject: Re: oh speaking fo tickets Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 13:09:00 -0500 Its' "Reckless" driving!! ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 3:33 PM Subject: oh speaking fo tickets A P.G. county cop hit me with a wreckless driving ticket. What did I do? I used too good braking technique. A small endo with the back tire coming up about a foot off the ground. (stopping at a red light) I asked the cop what I did "you flipped the front brake lever thingee and made the bike come up like this" and he moved his hand from horizontal to diagonal.. ( Good to know we have such articulate cops right? ) I asked him the definition of wreckless driving.. he said any act which endangered others.. I thought we had a law against vague laws? it's funny, no one seemed to be endangered. He did not issue me any ohter ticket.. but a couple of lies like.. "We got calls of bikes doing stunts" that's funny, the five or six other officers we just passed (traffic ticket day in that area) didn't seem to catch that one on the radio! " if a person on a bike is not the registered owner we can impound it" (the person who stopped with me, didn't violate any traffic laws).. Oh really? so no crime is committed,and the bike wasn't stolen, and you can impound it? why dont' you suck my..... Of course I wasn't rude or anything and dind't admit any guilt, was cooperative and polite, but this guy had ego problems as soon as he got out the car.. he runs over to me says "you been doing stunts" and points his finger at me... some old dude witha couple stripes on his arm, who didn't seem to know what he was doing.. I htink his supervisor came and helped him out. He seemed like he was transfered from another part of the country and didn't know what he was talking about/ doing. note we were riding organized (because of the police presence and new riders with us), and I was the last bike in about six bikes.. so pulling up to the light last, there was already a spot there for me at the back, i coasted up, applied brakes hard, and stopped at the back of the pack. Back wheel came up about a foot. Didn't even speed, but it was enough momentum to get the wheel in the air. I figure if i hadn't have used my brakes and plowed into the bike infront of me, i'd be charged with failure to control speed to avoid an accident.. if I use my brakes too well and control my speed to the best of the bikes ability, I get a ticket for wreckless go figure! So has anyone heard of a legal defense for this? He fined me 275 big ones, and I really don't want a reckless on my record. Danny can't stand cops who don't know the principle of the law they enforce From dc-cycles-request Wed Dec 5 13:25:09 2001 From: "Paul Wilson" To: "dc-cycles list" Subject: Re: oh speaking fo tickets Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 13:28:12 -0500 Heck, I'd get a "wreckless" ticket every day. :) Reckless, esp. in Va., is a catch all offense that can mean whatever the LEO wants it to mean. I suppose one hand on the grips could be considered reckless if the cop had a jones for motorcyclists. Heck, a rider on a touring bike, an MSF instructor no less, was pulled over in Herndon for weaving down the road (tire warming maneuver.) Paul in DC 95 VFR750F www.wilsonline.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roy D. Turner, Esq." > Its' "Reckless" driving!! > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > > > A P.G. county cop hit me with a wreckless driving ticket. > > What did I do? I used too good braking technique. A small endo From dc-cycles-request Wed Dec 5 13:32:21 2001 Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 13:32:10 -0500 To: dc-cycles@XXXXXX From: Troutman Subject: Re: oh speaking fo tickets At 03:33 PM 12/5/01, daniel_ex250@XXXXXX wrote: >I figure if i hadn't have used my brakes and plowed into the bike >infront of me, i'd be charged with failure to control speed to avoid >an accident.. if I use my brakes too well and control my speed to the >best of the bikes ability, I get a ticket for wreckless go figure! > >So has anyone heard of a legal defense for this? He fined me 275 big >ones, and I really don't want a reckless on my record. On hand A we have : You performed a legal stop. You had to brake hard to avoid hitting the guy in front of you - it was not malicious. This is a side effect of good braking technique. Meanwhile, hand B says : You weren't paying attention and had to panic brake to avoid hitting your friends OR you did stoppie on purpose. Either way - it was reckless. So - I would ask myself in all honesty - did I stoppie on purpose to show off in front of my friends - or was I distracted and forced to brake hard. Which story can you sell to the judge? ___________________________________________ Mike Troutman http://www.troutman.org/vfr 1997 Honda VFR 750 AMA ~=~ NMA ~=~ NRA From dc-cycles-request Wed Dec 5 13:34:15 2001 Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 13:34:04 -0500 To: dc-cycles@XXXXXX From: Troutman Subject: Re: oh speaking fo tickets Shouldn't an MSF instructor know that quick stops and starts warm up the tires - not weavies? At 01:28 PM 12/5/01, you wrote: >Heck, a rider on a touring bike, an MSF instructor >no less, was pulled over in Herndon for weaving down the road (tire warming >maneuver.) ___________________________________________ Mike Troutman http://www.troutman.org/vfr 1997 Honda VFR 750 AMA ~=~ NMA ~=~ NRA From dc-cycles-request Wed Dec 5 13:39:38 2001 Subject: RE: oh speaking fo tickets From: "sdave@XXXXXX" Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 13:39:40 -0500 To: "dc-cycles@XXXXXX" A P.G. county cop hit me with a wreckless driving ticket. At 1st perusal, I'd suggest getting a lawyer to fight this NOW. Preferrably, one who doesn't make an issue out of how you spell 'reckless' ;-) What did I do? I used too good braking technique. A small endo with the back tire coming up about a foot off the ground. (stopping at a red light) I asked the cop what I did "you flipped the front brake lever thingee and made the bike come up like this" and he moved his hand from horizontal to diagonal.. ( Good to know we have such articulate cops right? ) right about now, I'm thinking 'he's got you'. I mean, it will wash with a judge, and you'll be convicted. You could win on appeal however. I'm given to understand that the PG appeal works to the violator's favor pretty well... I asked him the definition of wreckless driving.. he said any act which endangered others.. I thought we had a law against vague laws? it's funny, no one seemed to be endangered. well, that's not exactly the legal definition, but MD reckless is kind of a catch all, nebulous statute. He did not issue me any ohter ticket.. but a couple of lies like.. "We got calls of bikes doing stunts" that's funny, the five or six other officers we just passed (traffic ticket day in that area) didn't seem to catch that one on the radio! " if a person on a bike is not the registered owner we can impound it" (the person who stopped with me, didn't violate any traffic laws).. Oh really? so no crime is committed,and the bike wasn't stolen, and you can impound it? why dont' you suck my..... .. note we were riding organized (because of the police presence and new riders with us), and I was the last bike in about six bikes.. so pulling up to the light last, there was already a spot there for me at the back, i coasted up, applied brakes hard, and stopped at the back of the pack. Back wheel came up about a foot. Didn't even speed, but it was enough momentum to get the wheel in the air. from what you explained, unless one of the other bikers saw you in the rear view mirror, you're toast. No witnesses for the defense, & an expert witness for the prosecution... Get a lawyer, and get his thought. I figure if i hadn't have used my brakes and plowed into the bike infront of me, i'd be charged with failure to control speed to avoid an accident.. if I use my brakes too well and control my speed to the best of the bikes ability, I get a ticket for wreckless go figure! Don't even waste any brain bandwidth on this, it won't sell in court. So has anyone heard of a legal defense for this? He fined me 275 big ones, and I really don't want a reckless on my record. Then you need a lawyer. If you choose to represent yourself, which is a bad idea in this case, continue it at least 2 times. use the time to get ready. You said he had reports of... subpoena the dispatch records (if for no other reason than to try and get him to admit he said that and hope there are no dispatch reports of such). IMHO (not professional mind you), you're best shot at avoiding reckless here is to meet the prosecutor and offer a deal of double fine, no points, non moving violation ; loud pipes or summat. It WILL show on your record, but WON'T affect your insurance, which is the goal here, AND it WILL NOT keep you from expunging in MD. If you think that's too much, consider this, your insurance will go up on all of your vehicles at least a hundred / year, for a minimum of 3 years IF you get no other tickets or accidents... and 100 / vehicle is a conservative estimate, at best. Please, get a lawyer. Dave -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From dc-cycles-request Wed Dec 5 13:41:35 2001 From: "Roy D. Turner, Esq." To: "Roy D. Turner, Esq." , , Subject: Re: oh speaking fo tickets Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 13:33:39 -0500 I need to correct myself: Its' should be It's !!!! ----- Original Message ----- From: Roy D. Turner, Esq. To: ; Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 1:09 PM Subject: Re: oh speaking fo tickets > Its' "Reckless" driving!! > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 3:33 PM > Subject: oh speaking fo tickets > > > A P.G. county cop hit me with a wreckless driving ticket. > > What did I do? I used too good braking technique. A small endo > with the back tire coming up about a foot off the ground. (stopping at > a red light) > > I asked the cop what I did "you flipped the front brake lever thingee > and made the bike come up like this" and he moved his hand from > horizontal to diagonal.. > > ( Good to know we have such articulate cops right? ) > > I asked him the definition of wreckless driving.. he said any act > which endangered others.. I thought we had a law against vague laws? > it's funny, no one seemed to be endangered. > > He did not issue me any ohter ticket.. but a couple of lies like.. > > "We got calls of bikes doing stunts" that's funny, the five or six > other officers we just passed (traffic ticket day in that area) didn't > seem to catch that one on the radio! > > " if a person on a bike is not the registered owner we can impound it" > (the person who stopped with me, didn't violate any traffic laws).. Oh > really? so no crime is committed,and the bike wasn't stolen, and you > can impound it? why dont' you suck my..... > > Of course I wasn't rude or anything and dind't admit any guilt, was > cooperative and polite, but this guy had ego problems as soon as he > got out the car.. he runs over to me says "you been doing stunts" and > points his finger at me... some old dude witha couple stripes on his > arm, who didn't seem to know what he was doing.. I htink his > supervisor came and helped him out. He seemed like he was transfered > from another part of the country and didn't know what he was talking > about/ doing. > > note we were riding organized (because of the police presence and new > riders with us), and I was the last bike in about six bikes.. so > pulling up to the light last, there was already a spot there for me at > the back, i coasted up, applied brakes hard, and stopped at the back > of the pack. Back wheel came up about a foot. Didn't even speed, but > it was enough momentum to get the wheel in the air. > > I figure if i hadn't have used my brakes and plowed into the bike > infront of me, i'd be charged with failure to control speed to avoid > an accident.. if I use my brakes too well and control my speed to the > best of the bikes ability, I get a ticket for wreckless go figure! > > > So has anyone heard of a legal defense for this? He fined me 275 big > ones, and I really don't want a reckless on my record. > > > Danny > can't stand cops who don't know the principle of the law they enforce > From dc-cycles-request Wed Dec 5 13:46:36 2001 Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 13:46:15 -0500 Subject: Re: oh speaking fo tickets From: Sean Jordan To: dc-cycles@XXXXXX > Heck, a rider on a touring bike, an MSF instructor > no less, was pulled over in Herndon for weaving down the road (tire > warming > maneuver.) You might want to pass onto your MSF instructing friend that "weaving" does not not work to warm up motorcycle tires. http://venus.13x.com/roadracingworld/issues/feb00/weave.htm "For man, maximum excitement is the confrontation of death and the skillful defiance of it." M-^WErnest Becker (1924-1974) Sean Jordan Jordan Racing / DC-Cycles Racing '90 Yamaha FZR400 http://www.angelfire.com/mac/eternity23/jordanracing.html From dc-cycles-request Wed Dec 5 14:03:22 2001 Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 14:03:14 -0500 Subject: Re: oh speaking fo tickets From: Sean Jordan To: dc-cycles@XXXXXX --Apple-Mail-1--792976954 > I used too good braking technique. A small endo > with the back tire coming up about a foot off the ground. (stopping at > a red light) "Good braking technique" wouldn't have resulted in a stoppie. While it is something that takes a certain modicum of skill, it is not part of any sort of riding technique that makes sense on the street. I'm assuming you did the stoppie for fun. If you did not, then you need to start braking sooner. Waiting until the last minute and braking hard, and then initiating a stoppie at a traffic light with a bunch of people in front of you is *not* "good braking technique". Technique includes not only the skill employed in a manuever > i coasted up, applied brakes hard, and stopped at the back > of the pack. Back wheel came up about a foot. Didn't even speed, but > it was enough momentum to get the wheel in the air. What if you had hit an unseen patch of oil or gravel, (which exist all too commonly at the patch of asphalt right before an intersection)? Seeing as how you're only on the front wheel, and you're already braking heavily, the available traction left over is at a bare minimum. So, in a sense, you were endangering the people in front of you. When you perform a stoppie, you're pretty much committed to the maneuver. Under "normal" braking, you are still capable of turning, accelerating, etc. So you willfully surrendered full control of your vehicle. You better hope the D.A. doesn't know anything about motorcycling. (Or that he reads this email!) Sean can't stand people who do something stupid, get caught, and then complain about it --Apple-Mail-1--792976954 I used too good braking technique. A small endo with the back tire coming up about a foot off the ground. (stopping at a red light) "Good braking technique" wouldn't have resulted in a stoppie. While it is something that takes a certain modicum of skill, it is not part of any sort of riding technique that makes sense on the street. I'm assuming you did the stoppie for fun. If you did not, then you need to start braking sooner. Waiting until the last minute and braking hard, and then initiating a stoppie at a traffic light with a bunch of people in front of you is *not* "good braking technique". Technique includes not only the skill employed in a manuever i coasted up, applied brakes hard, and stopped at the back of the pack. Back wheel came up about a foot. Didn't even speed, but it was enough momentum to get the wheel in the air. What if you had hit an unseen patch of oil or gravel, (which exist all too commonly at the patch of asphalt right before an intersection)? Seeing as how you're only on the front wheel, and you're already braking heavily, the available traction left over is at a bare minimum. So, in a sense, you were endangering the people in front of you. When you perform a stoppie, you're pretty much committed to the maneuver. Under "normal" braking, you are still capable of turning, accelerating, etc. So you willfully surrendered full control of your vehicle. You better hope the D.A. doesn't know anything about motorcycling. (Or that he reads this email!) Sean can't stand people who do something stupid, get caught, and then complain about it Courier New Times New Roman --Apple-Mail-1--792976954-- From dc-cycles-request Wed Dec 5 14:06:25 2001 Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 13:03:16 -0600 From: "George Cole" To: , Subject: Re: oh speaking fo tickets >>> wrote >A P.G. county cop hit me with a wreckless driving ticket. >What did I do? I used too good braking technique. A small endo >with the back tire coming up about a foot off the ground. (stopping at >a red light) -- Come on now Danny, who are you trying to convince? Us or the Judge Everyone here, who has read some of your posts, know that you hang with the Squidly crowd (IE DC sportbike) in PG county, and that stoppie was fully done on purpose. PLEASE! Yes it sucks to get a ticket like that, but I would be really surprised if you talk your way out of that one. Go to court and plead guilty with explanation is what I would do and hope for the best. BTW It takes a serious effort to perform a stoppie, usually one grab on the lever to compress the front and another really hard pull to bring up the rear. I er read this in a PB magazine a while back. George Cole 01 FZ1 From dc-cycles-request Wed Dec 5 14:07:41 2001 Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 14:06:31 -0500 From: Dale Horstman Subject: Re: oh speaking fo tickets To: Sean Jordan Cc: dc-cycles@XXXXXX Sean Jordan wrote: > > > Heck, a rider on a touring bike, an MSF instructor > > no less, was pulled over in Herndon for weaving down the road (tire > > warming > > maneuver.) > > You might want to pass onto your MSF instructing friend that "weaving" > does not not work to warm up motorcycle tires. Maybe the MSF instructor was just trying to clean off his tires edge to edge (gravel roads/mud/other road snarf)? I've done this on occasion. Hork -- MSL! SMG! (Chatty Moron TM's) Dale Horstman - the.horkster@XXXXXX Dale City, Virginia, USA, Earth AWSHIDT #322 - Completed. 99 Highway Signs! '98 Kawasaki Concours - BugSlayer '99 Kawasaki Concours - Grape Nehi '82 Suzuki GS850G - work in progress From dc-cycles-request Wed Dec 5 14:15:39 2001 From: "Paul Wilson" To: "Dale Horstman" Cc: "dc-cycles list" Subject: Re: oh speaking fo tickets Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 14:18:27 -0500 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dale Horstman" > Sean Jordan wrote: > > > > > Heck, a rider on a touring bike, an MSF instructor > > > no less, was pulled over in Herndon for weaving down the road (tire > > > warming > > > maneuver.) > > > > You might want to pass onto your MSF instructing friend that "weaving" > > does not not work to warm up motorcycle tires. > > Maybe the MSF instructor was just trying to clean off his tires > edge to edge (gravel roads/mud/other road snarf)? I've done this > on occasion. > > Hork "Scrubbing": that's what he claimed he has doing, but I hardly think it rises to a ticketable offense on a deserted street. I didn't follow up on how the case turned out. Herndon LEOs must have a lot of time on their hands. Paul in DC From dc-cycles-request Wed Dec 5 14:17:34 2001 Subject: RE: Re: oh speaking fo tickets From: "sdave@XXXXXX" Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 14:32:33 -0500 To: "dc-cycles@XXXXXX" > I used too good braking technique. A small endo > with the back tire coming up about a foot off the ground. (stopping at > a red light) hmm... I wonder what ANKER might say... ;-) "Good braking technique" wouldn't have resulted in a stoppie. ... Dave -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From dc-cycles-request Wed Dec 5 14:22:36 2001 Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 14:20:54 -0500 From: Dale Horstman Subject: Re: oh speaking fo tickets To: Paul Wilson Cc: dc-cycles list Paul Wilson wrote: > "Scrubbing": that's what he claimed he has doing, but I hardly think it > rises to a ticketable offense on a deserted street. Yeah, it seems like it's out of line to get the ticket, but all the cop saw was the bike weaving all over the road. I'd explain what I was doing to the cop in order to maybe not get the ticket, and then to the judge to maybe get the charge reduced or dismissed. It would be interesting to see how his battle turned out. -- MSL! SMG! (Chatty Moron TM's) Dale Horstman - the.horkster@XXXXXX Dale City, Virginia, USA, Earth AWSHIDT #322 - Completed. 99 Highway Signs! '98 Kawasaki Concours - BugSlayer '99 Kawasaki Concours - Grape Nehi '82 Suzuki GS850G - work in progress From dc-cycles-request Wed Dec 5 14:24:07 2001 From: "Jon Strang" To: Subject: RE: oh speaking fo tickets Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 14:22:21 -0500 I've *never* done anything as reckless as a stoppie or even a wheelie. I can't believe that someone on this list would have the immaturity to operate a motor vehicle in such a manner. I am appalled. --jon 01 Suz Bandit 1200 From dc-cycles-request Wed Dec 5 14:29:29 2001 From: "Paul Wilson" To: Subject: Re: oh speaking fo tickets Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 14:31:45 -0500 A "small" endo, a foot off the ground? A minor hop might happen accidentally, but a foot sounds pre-meditated to me. I'm also wondering how snapping the lever to raise the tire off the ground is "good" braking technique. A nice circus trick, too be sure, but good bike handling. A little quiz. Biker A has one wheel off the ground and 40% +/- of his contact patch available for stopping and only one tire providing directional control. Biker B has both wheels on the pavement, 100% of his tire contact patch available for stopping and directional control. Is it A or B who has better control of his bike? Paul in DC 95 VFR750F www.wilsonline.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "George Cole" >>> wrote >A P.G. county cop hit me with a wreckless driving ticket. >What did I do? I used too good braking technique. A small endo >with the back tire coming up about a foot off the ground. (stopping at >a red light) -- Come on now Danny, who are you trying to convince? Us or the Judge Everyone here, who has read some of your posts, know that you hang with the Squidly crowd (IE DC sportbike) in PG county, and that stoppie was fully done on purpose. PLEASE! Yes it sucks to get a ticket like that, but I would be really surprised if you talk your way out of that one. Go to court and plead guilty with explanation is what I would do and hope for the best. BTW It takes a serious effort to perform a stoppie, usually one grab on the lever to compress the front and another really hard pull to bring up the rear. I er read this in a PB magazine a while back. George Cole 01 FZ1 From dc-cycles-request Wed Dec 5 14:40:00 2001 Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 14:39:55 -0500 Subject: Re: oh speaking fo tickets From: Sean Jordan To: dc-cycles@XXXXXX --Apple-Mail-3--790775740 A "small" endo, a foot off the ground? Actually, as far as stoppies go, 1 ft. is rather small. And the correct term is "stoppie". An endo is where the rear tire comes up so far that during its arc is passes the front wheel. "Endo" is derived from the phrase "end-over-end". Just being particular. Sean Jordan --Apple-Mail-3--790775740 0000,0000,DEDEA "small" endo, a foot off the ground? Actually, as far as stoppies go, 1 ft. is rather small. And the correct term is "stoppie". An endo is where the rear tire comes up so far that during its arc is passes the front wheel. "Endo" is derived from the phrase "end-over-end". Just being particular. Sean Jordan --Apple-Mail-3--790775740-- From dc-cycles-request Wed Dec 5 15:01:07 2001 Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 14:58:34 -0500 To: From: Troutman Subject: braking thread At 02:31 PM 12/5/01, Paul Wilson wrote: >A >little quiz. Biker A has one wheel off the ground and 40% +/- of his >contact patch available for stopping and only one tire providing directional >control. Biker B has both wheels on the pavement, 100% of his tire contact >patch available for stopping and directional control. Is it A or B who has >better control of his bike? And this begins the braking thread. If you bring this up on rec.moto, you get two schools of thought. First - a hard braking situation forces most weight to the front of the bike, making it very hard to use much of the rear brake without skidding. So in this scenario a stoppie means you applied full front braking where it does the most good. Second - proper braking by easing both levers will stop you faster than the first situation - but maybe not in a panic stop. It is fairly easy to argue both sides, and I have no idea what the experts believe is the correct scenario. The longer wheelbase and higher weight of the VFR and general seating position means that most of my hard braking has not generated an endo - but it has happened once or twice. It is much easier to endo on supersports that weigh less and have bigger discs. ___________________________________________ Mike Troutman http://www.troutman.org/vfr 1997 Honda VFR 750 AMA ~=~ NMA ~=~ NRA From dc-cycles-request Wed Dec 5 15:06:10 2001 From: "Wesleyan Hsu" To: Subject: RE: oh speaking fo tickets Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 15:03:55 -0500 > -----Original Message----- > From: sdave@XXXXXX [mailto:sdave@XXXXXX] > Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 1:40 PM > To: dc-cycles@XXXXXX > Subject: RE: oh speaking fo tickets > > from expunging in MD. If you think that's too much, consider > this, your insurance will go up on all of your vehicles at > least a hundred / year, for a minimum of 3 years IF you get > no other tickets or accidents... and 100 / vehicle is a > conservative estimate, at best. $100 per year per vehicle is VERY conservative. Unfortunately, I know from experience. Up until November of 99, I had a flawless record. No tickets ever. Nothing. I was caught doing 93 in the 55 on the Dulles Toll Road in my M3. I went to court (had a REALLY bad lawyer) and plead guilty with explanation. I got some kind of fine ($300?) and 6 months suspension. I appealed to get a lowered fine and 6 months of restricted driving (so I could at least go to work). I got a friend to call my insurance company and asked what would happen to "my friend's" insurance under this circumstance. They said "your friend's" rate would probably triple. And that's just for one car. Well, since then, I got a second car and 2 bikes. I pay over $1100 per year to insure those bikes, and I don't remember how much for that second car (a beater daily driver). I hear insurance companies only look back 3 years...so come Feb of '04 (the date I got my license suspended), I should be totally clean again (insurance wise). What a wonderful day that will be. Another story...my neighbor got his reckless doing 102 in a 65. He spent 48 hours in the pokey. At least I didn't go to jail...but he hit the magic triple digits. Oh yeah, in VA, a reckless ticket is considered a criminal offense. Gotta love this wonderful Commonwealth. Hopefully it's not the same in MD. The point is this...you want to do whatever you can to get this recorded as anything but a reckless. Pay for a very good lawyer. Ask for double, triple, or even quadruple the fine. Offer to take a MSF class...ANYTHING. If s/he can get this reduced to something other than reckless (improper stopping?), the amount you pay this lawyer and fines will be extremely worth it. BTW, how are the courts in PG? In Fairfax County, if you get nailed, they're going to sentence you hard. In Loudoun County, they are MUCH more lax. Many times with a reckless ticket, you can ask for deferred adjudication. Stay clean for 6 months and they wipe this event from your record as if it never happened. Good luck, Wes Hsu '01 R1100SA '96 CBR900RR From dc-cycles-request Wed Dec 5 15:20:41 2001 From: Gaske David G DLVA To: dc-cycles@XXXXXX Subject: RE: oh speaking fo tickets Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 15:20:36 -0500 You are going to have to wait past '04 for that to be cleaned off. VA keeps reckless around for 11 years, acoording to the DMV website atleast (http://www.dmv.state.va.us/webdoc/citizen/drivers/points_6.asp). Happy Holidays -----Original Message----- From: Wesleyan Hsu [mailto:wes@XXXXXX] Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 3:04 PM To: dc-cycles@XXXXXX Subject: RE: oh speaking fo tickets > -----Original Message----- > From: sdave@XXXXXX [mailto:sdave@XXXXXX] > Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 1:40 PM > To: dc-cycles@XXXXXX > Subject: RE: oh speaking fo tickets > > from expunging in MD. If you think that's too much, consider > this, your insurance will go up on all of your vehicles at > least a hundred / year, for a minimum of 3 years IF you get > no other tickets or accidents... and 100 / vehicle is a > conservative estimate, at best. $100 per year per vehicle is VERY conservative. Unfortunately, I know from experience. Up until November of 99, I had a flawless record. No tickets ever. Nothing. I was caught doing 93 in the 55 on the Dulles Toll Road in my M3. I went to court (had a REALLY bad lawyer) and plead guilty with explanation. I got some kind of fine ($300?) and 6 months suspension. I appealed to get a lowered fine and 6 months of restricted driving (so I could at least go to work). I got a friend to call my insurance company and asked what would happen to "my friend's" insurance under this circumstance. They said "your friend's" rate would probably triple. And that's just for one car. Well, since then, I got a second car and 2 bikes. I pay over $1100 per year to insure those bikes, and I don't remember how much for that second car (a beater daily driver). I hear insurance companies only look back 3 years...so come Feb of '04 (the date I got my license suspended), I should be totally clean again (insurance wise). What a wonderful day that will be. Another story...my neighbor got his reckless doing 102 in a 65. He spent 48 hours in the pokey. At least I didn't go to jail...but he hit the magic triple digits. Oh yeah, in VA, a reckless ticket is considered a criminal offense. Gotta love this wonderful Commonwealth. Hopefully it's not the same in MD. The point is this...you want to do whatever you can to get this recorded as anything but a reckless. Pay for a very good lawyer. Ask for double, triple, or even quadruple the fine. Offer to take a MSF class...ANYTHING. If s/he can get this reduced to something other than reckless (improper stopping?), the amount you pay this lawyer and fines will be extremely worth it. BTW, how are the courts in PG? In Fairfax County, if you get nailed, they're going to sentence you hard. In Loudoun County, they are MUCH more lax. Many times with a reckless ticket, you can ask for deferred adjudication. Stay clean for 6 months and they wipe this event from your record as if it never happened. Good luck, Wes Hsu '01 R1100SA '96 CBR900RR From dc-cycles-request Wed Dec 5 15:30:19 2001 Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 15:30:06 -0500 To: dc-cycles@XXXXXX From: Troutman Subject: RE: oh speaking fo tickets At 03:20 PM 12/5/01, Gaske David G DLVA wrote: >You are going to have to wait past '04 for that to be cleaned off. VA keeps >reckless around for 11 years, acoording to the DMV website atleast >(http://www.dmv.state.va.us/webdoc/citizen/drivers/points_6.asp). Fortunately your driving record has a longer memory than your insurance records. They generally only go back 3 years - but some go back 5. FWIW I had a reckless a few years ago. 82 in a 55 on 66 in the cage. Driving with the flow of traffic - wasn't passing anyone. Judge told me he was sending people to jail for reckless - but I had 0 points, so he only fined me. No suspension. Insurance rates never went up. I love USAA. It is ridiculous to send people to jail for wreck-less speeding. ___________________________________________ Mike Troutman http://www.troutman.org If you think dogs can't count, try putting three dog biscuits in your pocket then giving Fido only two of them. From dc-cycles-request Wed Dec 5 15:35:46 2001 Subject: RE: oh speaking of tickets From: "sdave@XXXXXX" Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 15:35:57 -0500 To: "dc-cycles@XXXXXX" Wes confessed - $100 per year per vehicle is VERY conservative. Unfortunately, I know from experience. Up until November of 99, I had a flawless record. No tickets ever. Nothing. I was caught doing 93 in the 55 on the Dulles Toll Road in my M3. Topped it out, did you ;-) bah. I've got nothing against BMW or M car drivers, they always pull to the right when I pass them on the track... Anyway, now that I'm done ribbing, let's take a look. 93 in a 55, in an M3... Cops hate BMW's, Lexii, Infinity, Porsche - basically what they can't afford. I went to court (had a REALLY bad lawyer) and plead guilty with explanation. ????????? was this not a traffic lawyer ? SURELY a lawyer could've shot holes in at least one aspect of a traffic stop - pacing, current maintenance, engineering study of average speeds, officer vehicle stop record... I got some kind of fine ($300?) and 6 months suspension. I appealed to get a lowered fine and 6 months of restricted driving (so I could at least go to work). I got a friend to call my insurance company and asked what would happen to "my friend's" insurance under this circumstance. They said "your friend's" rate would probably triple. And that's just for one car. Well, since then, I got a second car and 2 bikes. I pay over $1100 per year to insure those bikes, and I don't remember how much for that second car (a beater daily driver). I hear insurance companies only look back 3 years...so come Feb of '04 (the date I got my license suspended), I should be totally clean again (insurance wise). What a wonderful day that will be. I had a coworker with a need for speed similar to mine. he had a 3000 GT VR4 and got snagged at 50 & the Beltway in VA for Reckless #3. They actually had the county prosecutor show up for the case, so (Pat being at least somewhat intelligent & got a good lawyer) they continued. The lawyer was good, and negotiated a 10 day 'administrative suspension', $1000.00 fine, and 6 months 'administrative' probation. He stayed clean, and it never showed on his record - as per the plea agreement. All of us in the office felt that Pat DEFINITELY got a good deal... Dave -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From dc-cycles-request Wed Dec 5 15:41:01 2001 From: "Wesleyan Hsu" To: "'Gaske David G DLVA'" Cc: Subject: RE: oh speaking fo tickets Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 15:38:12 -0500 Yes, I know VA keeps it on for 11 years, but from what I've heard (and it is somewhat confirmed by my applications for new insurance) is that insurance companies only care about offenses that have occurred within the past 3 years. Of course, this is not 100% confirmed, so perhaps I will be screwed by the insurance companies until I'm dead. Wes Hsu '01 R1100SA '96 CBR900RR > -----Original Message----- > From: Gaske David G DLVA [mailto:GaskeDG@XXXXXX] > Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 3:21 PM > To: dc-cycles@XXXXXX > Subject: RE: oh speaking fo tickets > > > You are going to have to wait past '04 for that to be cleaned > off. VA keeps reckless around for 11 years, acoording to the > DMV website atleast > (http://www.dmv.state.va.us/webdoc/citizen/drivers/points_6.asp). From dc-cycles-request Wed Dec 5 15:44:22 2001 Subject: RE: oh speaking of tickets From: "sdave@XXXXXX" Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 15:44:16 -0500 To: "dc-cycles@XXXXXX" Wes spoke the words of eternal truth - I will be screwed by the insurance companies until I'm dead. This much is a given, like death, and taxes. -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From dc-cycles-request Wed Dec 5 15:45:59 2001 From: "Jon Strang" To: "DC Cycles" Subject: FW: new 'ginger' Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 15:44:12 -0500 http://www.wherearemypants.com/images/storyimages/segway-r.jpg From dc-cycles-request Wed Dec 5 15:54:50 2001 Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 15:53:26 -0500 From: Dale Horstman Subject: Re: oh speaking fo tickets To: Troutman Cc: dc-cycles@XXXXXX Troutman wrote: > It is ridiculous to send people to jail for wreck-less speeding. So that guy who did 160 on Lake Shore Drive in Chicago a while ago didn't deserve to spend some time in the slammer? -- MSL! SMG! (Chatty Moron TM's) Dale Horstman - the.horkster@XXXXXX Dale City, Virginia, USA, Earth AWSHIDT #322 - Completed. 99 Highway Signs! '98 Kawasaki Concours - BugSlayer '99 Kawasaki Concours - Grape Nehi '82 Suzuki GS850G - work in progress From dc-cycles-request Wed Dec 5 15:57:16 2001 Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 15:56:23 -0500 From: Dale Horstman Subject: Re: oh speaking fo tickets To: Wesleyan Hsu Cc: "'Gaske David G DLVA'" , dc-cycles@XXXXXX Wesleyan Hsu wrote: > so perhaps I will be screwed by > the insurance companies until I'm dead. Uhh, aren't we all? :) Horkster -- MSL! SMG! (Chatty Moron TM's) Dale Horstman - the.horkster@XXXXXX Dale City, Virginia, USA, Earth AWSHIDT #322 - Completed. 99 Highway Signs! '98 Kawasaki Concours - BugSlayer '99 Kawasaki Concours - Grape Nehi '82 Suzuki GS850G - work in progress From dc-cycles-request Wed Dec 5 16:02:03 2001 Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 16:01:42 -0500 To: dc-cycles@XXXXXX From: Troutman Subject: Re: oh speaking fo tickets At 03:53 PM 12/5/01, you wrote: > > It is ridiculous to send people to jail for wreck-less speeding. > >So that guy who did 160 on Lake Shore Drive in Chicago a while >ago didn't deserve to spend some time in the slammer? Did he do anything than get that cop off his ass to go write him up? License suspension is one thing, huge fines are another ... but jail time is something else. You could argue that he did that on a city street - endangering lives - but in the end, all he did was speed. ___________________________________________ Mike Troutman http://www.troutman.org If you think dogs can't count, try putting three dog biscuits in your pocket then giving Fido only two of them. From dc-cycles-request Wed Dec 5 16:03:55 2001 From: "Paul Wilson" To: Subject: Re: braking thread Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 16:05:31 -0500 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Troutman" > > And this begins the braking thread. If you bring this up on rec.moto, you > get two schools of thought. > > First - a hard braking situation forces most weight to the front of the > bike, making it very hard to use much of the rear brake without > skidding. So in this scenario a stoppie means you applied full front > braking where it does the most good. > > Second - proper braking by easing both levers will stop you faster than the > first situation - but maybe not in a panic stop. > > It is fairly easy to argue both sides, and I have no idea what the experts > believe is the correct scenario. The longer wheelbase and higher weight of > the VFR and general seating position means that most of my hard braking has > not generated an endo - but it has happened once or twice. It is much > easier to endo on supersports that weigh less and have bigger discs. Usually this doesn't come up until February. :) Anyway, stopping well and braking hard are not one and the same. Part of braking is the thinking process before the brakes even get activated. We should not rely on getting 10/10ths out of our brakes in case we need to ease off due to poor traction, etc. Perhaps we can swerve instead of brake. MSF course materials say that swerving is more effective than braking in obstacle avoidance above 20 mph, all other conditions being equal, such as you have a clear path around the obstacle, etc. Paul in DC From dc-cycles-request Wed Dec 5 16:12:28 2001 Subject: RE: Re: oh speaking fo tickets From: "sdave@XXXXXX" Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 16:13:00 -0500 To: "dc-cycles@XXXXXX" Mike T. asks an important question - Did he do anything than get that cop off his ass to go write him up? License suspension is one thing, huge fines are another ... but jail time is something else. You could argue that he did that on a city street - endangering lives - but in the end, all he did was speed. True all he did was speed. but jail time removes the 'only in it for the money argument' from the equation, now doesn't it ? I'd much rather the government tax me up front, than from behind with this ticket writing Bull$hit. (not referring at all to mr. 160, above) I think jail time for speeding is a good thing. Think about it, only a few are going to get nabbed per day, due to all the excess paperwork. next, all the traffic court judges will have a lot less to do. then, let's not forget, it will cost $$$$$$$$ to house all the new found scofflaws. That means major budget shortfalls, the kind that a simple tax increase isn't going to fix - we're talking major staff reductions in the courts and traffic cops. PLUS - the playing field will be leveled because the State will now have to prove it's case beyond a reasonable doubt to a jury of our peers - not a judge bent on collecting revenue... One need only look to DC (sorry, Paul) to see what happens when you go the opposite direction... Dave -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From dc-cycles-request Wed Dec 5 16:40:16 2001 From: "Paul Wilson" To: Cc: "dc-cycles list" Subject: Re: Re: oh speaking fo tickets Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 16:41:00 -0500 ----- Original Message ----- From: ... I think jail time for speeding is a good thing. Think about it, only a few are going to get nabbed per day, due to all the excess paperwork. next, all the traffic court judges will have a lot less to do. then, let's not forget, it will cost $$$$$$$$ to house all the new found scofflaws. That means major budget shortfalls, the kind that a simple tax increase isn't going to fix - we're talking major staff reductions in the courts and traffic cops. PLUS - the playing field will be leveled because the State will now have to prove it's case beyond a reasonable doubt to a jury of our peers - not a judge bent on collecting revenue... One need only look to DC (sorry, Paul) to see what happens when you go the opposite direction... Dave Um, Dave if you're looking for a defense of DC's use of radar cams, look elsewhere. If you're looking for me to say that speeding on city streets full of pedestrians, cyclists, etc., is a "victimless crime" and speeding laws are only about revenue collection you'll need look elsewhere too. Just because there are jurisdictions who abuse traffic laws for this purpose does not make the laws themselves a bad idea. Someone--I think it was you actually!--called Hizzoner the Mayor and suggested community service in lieu. I think that's a super idea. A dozen hours fluffing pillows down at the homeless shelter or picking up cigarette butts in a park would cut these "road royals" down to size. Paul in DC From dc-cycles-request Wed Dec 5 16:49:07 2001 Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 13:49:00 -0800 (PST) From: Rahi Golshan Subject: Re: Re: oh speaking fo tickets To: Paul Wilson , sdave@XXXXXX Cc: dc-cycles list --0-131485657-1007588940=:57136 If it is not too much trouble, please take me off of this list. not aloud emails at work.. thanks Paul Wilson wrote: ----- Original Message ----- From: ... I think jail time for speeding is a good thing. Think about it, only a few are going to get nabbed per day, due to all the excess paperwork. next, all the traffic court judges will have a lot less to do. then, let's not forget, it will cost $$$$$$$$ to house all the new found scofflaws. That means major budget shortfalls, the kind that a simple tax increase isn't going to fix - we're talking major staff reductions in the courts and traffic cops. PLUS - the playing field will be leveled because the State will now have to prove it's case beyond a reasonable doubt to a jury of our peers - not a judge bent on collecting revenue... One need only look to DC (sorry, Paul) to see what happens when you go the opposite direction... Dave Um, Dave if you're looking for a defense of DC's use of radar cams, look elsewhere. If you're looking for me to say that speeding on city streets full of pedestrians, cyclists, etc., is a "victimless crime" and speeding laws are only about revenue collection you'll need look elsewhere too. Just because there are jurisdictions who abuse traffic laws for this purpose does not make the laws themselves a bad idea. Someone--I think it was you actually!--called Hizzoner the Mayor and suggested community service in lieu. I think that's a super idea. A dozen hours fluffing pillows down at the homeless shelter or picking up cigarette butts in a park would cut these "road royals" down to size. Paul in DC --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online at Yahoo! Greetings. --0-131485657-1007588940=:57136

 If it is not too much trouble, please take me off of this list. not aloud emails at work.. thanks

  Paul Wilson <pawilson@XXXXXX> wrote:


----- Original Message -----
From:
...
I think jail time for speeding is a good thing. Think about it, only a few
are going to get nabbed per day, due to all the excess paperwork. next, all
the traffic court judges will have a lot less to do. then, let's not
forget, it will cost $$$$$$$$ to house all the new found scofflaws. That
means major budget shortfalls, the kind that a simple tax increase isn't
going to fix - we're talking major staff reductions in the courts and
traffic cops. PLUS - the playing field will be leveled because the State
will now have to prove it's case beyond a reasonable doubt to a jury of our
peers - not a judge bent on collecting revenue...

One need only look to DC (sorry, Paul) to see what happens when you go the
opposite direction...

Dave



Um, Dave if you're looking for a defense of DC's use of radar ams, look
elsewhere. If you're looking for me to say that speeding on city streets
full of pedestrians, cyclists, etc., is a "victimless crime" and speeding
laws are only about revenue collection you'll need look elsewhere too. Just
because there are jurisdictions who abuse traffic laws for this purpose does
not make the laws themselves a bad idea. Someone--I think it was you
actually!--called Hizzoner the Mayor and suggested community service in
lieu. I think that's a super idea. A dozen hours fluffing pillows down at
the homeless shelter or picking up cigarette butts in a park would cut these
"road royals" down to size.

Paul in DC


Do You Yahoo!?
Send your FREE holiday greetings online at Yahoo! Greetings. --0-131485657-1007588940=:57136-- From dc-cycles-request Wed Dec 5 16:51:48 2001 Subject: RE: Re: Re: oh speaking fo tickets From: "sdave@XXXXXX" Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 16:52:37 -0500 To: "dc-cycles@XXXXXX" I yet again sandbagged DC ... One need only look to DC (sorry, Paul) to see what happens when you go the opposite direction... Dave Um, Dave if you're looking for a defense of DC's use of radar cams, look elsewhere. If you're looking for me to say that speeding on city streets full of pedestrians, cyclists, etc., is a "victimless crime" and speeding laws are only about revenue collection you'll need look elsewhere too. Just because there are jurisdictions who abuse traffic laws for this purpose does not make the laws themselves a bad idea. I only directed the apology to you in advance because, well, there just isn't much I like about DC, but I didn't want it to seem like I was goading you... Nevertheless, traffic cams are a bad idea, they're for nothing more than $$$, period. If it were about anything else, there wouldn't be a fine, there would also be points. Not that we should drag race down Constitution Ave. ... Someone--I think it was you actually!--called Hizzoner the Mayor and suggested community service in lieu. I think that's a super idea. Yes, that was me, and no, they won't do it. Why? because they want only your $$$ A dozen hours fluffing pillows down at the homeless shelter or picking up cigarette butts in a park would cut these "road royals" down to size. And, it would have the side benefit of forcing Hizzoner & his cohorts to live more within their means since all that $$$ wouldn't be there... Dave -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From dc-cycles-request Wed Dec 5 17:13:34 2001 Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 17:13:43 -0500 To: Troutman , dc-cycles@XXXXXX From: Larry Larson Subject: Re: oh speaking fo tickets At 01:32 PM 12/5/01, Troutman wrote: >Meanwhile, hand B says : You weren't paying attention and had to panic >brake to avoid hitting your friends OR you did stoppie on purpose. Either >way - it was reckless. There's a difference between "inattentive" and "reckless", Mike. -- Larry From dc-cycles-request Wed Dec 5 17:24:50 2001 Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 17:25:15 -0500 To: dc-cycles@XXXXXX From: Larry Larson Subject: Federal law on GW Parkway? I know that enforcement on the GW Parkway on the Virginia side is done by Park Police, but does anyone know what laws apply on that road? Are they separate Federal statutes, or do all Virginia laws -- including the reckless by speed provisions -- apply on the Parkway too? Thanks. Thanks -- Larry '01 Aprilia Mille SL Falco '84 Interceptor 500 (small emergency backup bike) '01 Suzuki GS500 (dependable small emergency backup bike to the small emergency backup bike) From dc-cycles-request Wed Dec 5 20:20:37 2001 Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 17:20:36 -0800 (PST) From: PJ Taei Subject: I fell down :( To: Gaske David G DLVA , dc-cycles@XXXXXX My name is PJ T. and I like riding, so one day I went skydiving(I like to yell and jump out of an airplane), anyways I was going to fast and I fell down. :( __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com From dc-cycles-request Wed Dec 5 20:55:54 2001 From: "Dave Yates" To: Subject: RE: Federal law on GW Parkway? Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 20:53:05 -0500 Larry asks a doozey - I know that enforcement on the GW Parkway on the Virginia side is done by Park Police, but does anyone know what laws apply on that road? Are they separate Federal statutes, or do all Virginia laws -- including the reckless by speed provisions -- apply on the Parkway too? Thanks. Very good question. *technically* it's National Park Service land, so they enforce Federal law. However, deep down on their website it indicates that if the state allows it, Park Police may enforce state law as well. I'd be willing to bet money that VA has agreed. So, what about your (figuratively) concealed handgun ; perfectly legal by permit in VA, but highly ILLEGAL by NPS regulation and debatably by statute (reads something like non lawful purposes)... so what's enforced??? An inexpensive way to find out would be to drive up & down the parkway with a radar detector, and deliberately ride in front of a PP officer. It's not a moving violation... Any volunteers ? Dave Yates '90 ZX11 'Acceleratus Maximus' LTT customized M96G EII 'Little Friend' http://www.radix.net/~sdave/ From dc-cycles-request Wed Dec 5 21:19:34 2001 Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 18:19:32 -0800 (PST) From: Glenn Dysart Subject: Re: oh speaking fo tickets To: Dale Horstman , Troutman Cc: dc-cycles@XXXXXX I say no. People are thrown into jail for the dumbest things anymore... that's why our jails are full of non-violent criminals, mostly minor drug offenses. And that judge in Southern VA has been throwing people in jail for 90 on I-81, that rediculous! Glenn --- Dale Horstman wrote: > Troutman wrote: > > > It is ridiculous to send people to jail for > wreck-less speeding. > > So that guy who did 160 on Lake Shore Drive in > Chicago a while > ago didn't deserve to spend some time in the > slammer? > > -- > MSL! SMG! (Chatty Moron TM's) > > Dale Horstman - the.horkster@XXXXXX > Dale City, Virginia, USA, Earth > > AWSHIDT #322 - Completed. 99 Highway Signs! > > '98 Kawasaki Concours - BugSlayer > '99 Kawasaki Concours - Grape Nehi > '82 Suzuki GS850G - work in progress __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com From dc-cycles-request Thu Dec 6 09:32:23 2001 From: PenguinBiker@XXXXXX Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 09:31:54 EST Subject: Re: braking thread To: dc-cycles@XXXXXX In a message dated 12/5/2001 4:05:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, pawilson@XXXXXX writes: > MSF course materials say that > swerving is more effective than braking in obstacle avoidance above 20 mph, I have to ask, and short of filling this with silly emoticons I fear it will seem harsh. That is not my intention at all I just want to clarify. Where do they say that? I do not remember that blanket statement and do not find it in any of my materials (MRC-RSS, ERC, BRC.) Not that I re-read every word again so it may be there. What I do find is "Research has shown that speeds above about 18 mph, a motorcycle can swerve to avoid a car-sized obstacle in less distance than it takes to stop. (BRC RiderHandbook P.38)" _And that is not the same thing at all._ This example is a stopped car (narrow end) A larger obstacle, or a moving one for instance may require braking first, then swerving, or just braking, or there may be no place to swerve to. (This is one damn big obstacle why did you not see it?) MSF takes pains to point out that in fact what to do is totally dependant on circumstances. I also find an example at no less then _50 mph._. "Your speed is 50 mph... What can you do?... Brake hard, then swerve... (ERC IG P. VII-35." In this case (an animal (Human or not)) in the road. there is no way to predict which way they will go so you are as likely to swerve into them as around them. The important thing here is to slow down, and hope that the animal will move in one direction or the other so you can swerve the other way, and if not you will at least be slowed down. Give me a page # and a quote and I will be glad to apologize if in fact it states what you say. John Walters (Long John) PenguinBiker@XXXXXX Up near DC Honda ST1100X Pan European (With all of the STs all of a sudden the Pan European is now necessary {and I still like it.}) BMW R80RT 200,000+ miles Honda 1976 CR250M Motowhat racer From dc-cycles-request Thu Dec 6 09:38:29 2001 From: daniel_ex250@XXXXXX To: "sdave@XXXXXX" Cc: "dc-cycles@XXXXXX" Subject: Re: oh speaking fo tickets Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 09:41:45 -0800 As far as a witness, there was one.. there were six of us, riding orginized and staggered, but pulling up to the light, we pulled up in groups of two per lane. One was a new rider at the back, (second to last) She pulled up, and I pulled up next to her. From dc-cycles-request Thu Dec 6 09:59:15 2001 Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 06:59:13 -0800 (PST) From: Tom Gimer Subject: Re: oh speaking fo tickets To: Dale Horstman , Troutman Cc: dc-cycles@XXXXXX hell no! not for speeding anyway. that guy got 160mph out of a cbr600! he should have been locked up for attempted theft in trying to get $10k for the autographed bike on ebay. -- tg --- Dale Horstman wrote: > Troutman wrote: > > > It is ridiculous to send people to jail for wreck-less > speeding. > > So that guy who did 160 on Lake Shore Drive in Chicago a > while > ago didn't deserve to spend some time in the slammer? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com From dc-cycles-request Thu Dec 6 10:01:25 2001 From: daniel_ex250@XXXXXX To: "George Cole" Cc: Subject: Re: oh speaking fo tickets - endo effort Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 10:04:42 -0800 It doens't take serious effort. all it takes is grabbing the brakes... there are a lot of accidents that are preceeded by people grabbing the brakes... and the bike going down or flipping over forward.. it all depends if your wheel is straight and you're balanced. If you've got good brakign habbits, you'll be balanced. Supposing your'e on a wonderfully equipped sportbike such as the zx6r I ride. Of course I do squidly things... but if you have any sense of what the american legal system is about, you don't get tried for your history, other crimes not named in the charging document, the content of your character, or anything else, you get tried for a specific occurance of violation of law.. and that's how it should be. The jails aren't big enough to hold everyone, if you know what i mean.. there are no saints round these har parts! Now my academic arguement is that endos are a result of the brake working to it's maximum.... I can be going pretty fast, apply my brake, have my back wheel come off the ground without me ever coming to a stop.. That's maximum use of braking.. should that be a crime? I say no! and the practical discussion is how can I win my court case, or atleast get the most lienient punishment. As far as to who I ride with, or if I am squidly, If you want to just flame me because you don't like me or my types round har' then maybe you should look into your own anti-social personality issues. That has nothing to do with the case at hand. 1. Too many humans lack tolerance, and hate 2. The old motherly adage of "if you can't say anything nice" Maybe you should consider those things.. Ben Franklin, wash your fingers before you point at my spots. As far as the practical advice given, thank you for your response. I still feel this is another instance of 1> vague law 2> an act which shouldn't be a crime. (throw in some philosophical debates here: disobedience to tyranny is obediance to God, the more numerous the laws the more corrupt the state, giving in changes nothing) :) thank you and have a blessed day! Danny From dc-cycles-request Thu Dec 6 10:10:30 2001 Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 07:10:29 -0800 (PST) From: Tom Gimer Subject: Re: oh speaking fo tickets To: Larry Larson , Troutman , dc-cycles@XXXXXX --- Larry Larson wrote: > At 01:32 PM 12/5/01, Troutman wrote: > >Meanwhile, hand B says : You weren't paying attention > and had to panic > >brake to avoid hitting your friends OR you did stoppie > on purpose. Either > >way - it was reckless. > > There's a difference between "inattentive" and > "reckless", Mike. and for some reason we gave individual police officers the discretion to make that call and turn a simple lapse in safe driving (negligence) into a jailable offense. -- tg __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com From dc-cycles-request Thu Dec 6 10:14:11 2001 From: daniel_ex250@XXXXXX To: "Jon Strang" , dc-cycles@XXXXXX Subject: Re: oh speaking fo tickets Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 10:17:28 -0800 |>caught and penalized> Actually I bite tickets pretty well.. when I average out what I do vs the getting caught ratio.. I find that instead of spending years in prison and costly fortunes... I make out better than most. way better. I just average out what I do, and what I get caught for... it's like under thirty two dollars per serious incident, and that's not counting the uncountable wheelies endos, and high chairs I do.. Oh let's throw in the arguement I pay taxes and should be able to use the streets too, as long as I'm not endagering anyone else. If a squid kid wants to wheelie on an empty road.. by all means.. Are we going to start banning the legal use of public shadowboxing because if someone were near they could get socked in the nose? who's whining? I'm just debating legal merit and trying to beat the ticket because I feel that particular thing shouldn't be a crime. I think all motorcyclists (with capable bikes) should know how to, and be allowed to, use their braking to the maxiumum, even if it *LOOKS* like a stunt. We dont need "feel good" unpractical laws. if it's illegal to use your brakes to the maxium, isn't that kind of backwards? That's a much needed skill to avoid accidents. Should you NOT be allowed to use your brakes in a manner that could save your life, because the bike shifts weight and the rear wheel comes up? That's my arguement. Whining.. no. I'm not bitching at all.. did I bitch about my three hundred dollar speeding ticket last year? no. Money comes and goes, tickets are just taxes on riding. who cares. This is about principle though. Am I a badboy? yes. Am I evil incarnate? no. Danny seems like I just walked into glass houseville. hehhehe From dc-cycles-request Thu Dec 6 10:25:25 2001 Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 10:18:48 -0500 (EST) From: hcaldwell To: dc-cycles@XXXXXX Subject: Re: oh speaking fo tickets On Thu, 6 Dec 2001 daniel_ex250@XXXXXX wrote: > She pulled up, and I pulled up next to her. > Was she impressed? Hugh From dc-cycles-request Thu Dec 6 10:34:54 2001 Subject: RE: Re: oh speaking fo tickets - endo effort From: "sdave@XXXXXX" Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 10:34:59 -0500 To: "dc-cycles@XXXXXX" Daniel said (strange how close that is to denial...) - It doens't take serious effort. all it takes is grabbing the brakes... there are a lot of accidents that are preceeded by people grabbing the brakes... ...Supposing your'e on a wonderfully equipped sportbike such as the zx6r I ride. on some machines it does take serious effort and with some riders. Of course I do squidly things... but if you have any sense of what the american legal system is about, you don't get tried for your history, other crimes not named in the charging document... Stop waving the flag, this is TRAFFIC court, your rights are non existent there. We're just trying to point out some ways to avoid future run ins with officer friendly. And BTW, PG is not exactly the safest place to get stopped for a serious (they think) traffic stop. there are no saints round these har parts! Good point. I'll bet a search of the archives will show at least some of your critics have done the same stuff.. Now my academic arguement is that endos are a result of the brake working to it's maximum.... I can be going pretty fast, apply my brake, have my back wheel come off the ground without me ever coming to a stop.. That's maximum use of braking.. should that be a crime? I say no! Stoppies (Endo? isn't that the Ferrari guy ?) are to braking what wheelies are to accelerating - beyond the point of maximum efficiency, resulting in lost braking power. Both are not unavoidable, but in some situations it may be impractical to avoid them. Lofting the rear wheel is not maximum braking, it's show braking, maximum braking is both tires howling as you come to a stop so hard it hurts your wrists, elbows, shoulders as you fight to not fly over the bars... Should any of this be a crime ? You can make an argument for wheelies being a crime - I'm not saying I think it should be, just that you can make the argument. One of my fellow instructors is a local deputy, and as he puts it, 'you're not in total control of the vehicle at that point (a wheelie)'. I responded with 'you're more out of control of your cruiser doing 80 to catch me after doing the wheelie, than I ever was doing the wheelie, and you're putting the public at risk by pushing a passenger vehicle to extremes of sports car levels. Sooner or later the laws of physics will catch up with you and write you a huge ticket'... He did NOT see the humor, did not sympathize, nor did he agree at 1st... He did concede his crown vic wasn't the optimal vehicle to run down speeders... 4 of us chided him for some of his comments, hopefully he got something from it... No, most of this is a money grab by the state. Cops are far more dangerous as a demographic than seniors, teenagers & 20 somethings combined as drivers. I'm not saying it should be a free for all on the roads, but there's plenty of other productive things the cops could be doing than write your Reckless ticket... and the practical discussion is how can I win my court case, or atleast get the most lienient punishment. As far as to who I ride with, or if I am squidly, If you want to just flame me because you don't like me or my types round har' then maybe you should look into your own anti-social personality issues. BTDTGTTS . Anti social is such an ugly term. I prefer separatist. That has nothing to do with the case at hand. 1. Too many humans lack tolerance, and hate Hate is in our nature. There's nothing wrong with a little properly focused hatred... Focused, say on taxes, speed cameras etc... As far as the practical advice given, thank you for your response. I still feel this is another instance of 1> vague law 2> an act which shouldn't be a crime. Do you want to make a stand for your Rights as an American, or win / lower your 'on hook responsibility' for the crime which you are charged with ? They're mutually exclusive, and if you even think of attacking the law itself, it's application, the officer that applied it, or principle, you will lose. (throw in some philosophical debates here: disobedience to tyranny is obediance to God, the more numerous the laws the more corrupt the state, giving in changes nothing) :) Sure, but that doesn't change one whit that you got caught red handed. You really need to get a lawyer. They will be able to guide you best on how to proceed. Dave thank you and have a blessed day! Danny -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From dc-cycles-request Thu Dec 6 10:45:19 2001 Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 10:21:51 -0500 To: dc-cycles@XXXXXX From: Larry Larson Subject: Re: oh speaking fo tickets - endo effort Cc: At 01:04 PM 12/6/01, daniel_ex250@XXXXXX wrote: >.... I can be going pretty fast, apply my >brake, have my back wheel come off the ground without me ever coming >to a stop.. That's maximum use of braking.. should that be a crime? >I say no! I say yes. That's willfully giving up a major degree of control of your vehicle while moving, and I'd say that's reckless driving, to a "T". -- Larry From dc-cycles-request Thu Dec 6 10:48:28 2001 Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 10:48:15 -0500 To: dc-cycles@XXXXXX From: Troutman Subject: RE: Re: oh speaking fo tickets - endo effort At 10:34 AM 12/6/01, sdave@XXXXXX wrote: >Do you want to make a stand for your Rights as an American, or win / lower >your 'on hook responsibility' for the crime which you are charged with >? They're mutually exclusive, and if you even think of attacking the law >itself, it's application, the officer that applied it, or principle, you >will lose. Anyone looking to beat a ticket AND take a stand should be investing in the NMA with me each year. I'm debating getting a life membership - but like the AMA - that is a big hunk of cash. www.motorists.org The NMA is a good organization - fighting speed bumps, red light cameras, speed traps, DRLs (debate is open), and a host of other things. Most members are cagers - but many are motorcyclists. The big plus is that if you use their speeding ticket fighting kit - and still get a ticket - they will pay the fine for you. Check 'em out! I give memberships for (some) Christmas gifts! ___________________________________________ Mike Troutman http://www.troutman.org/vfr 1997 Honda VFR 750 AMA ~=~ NMA ~=~ NRA From dc-cycles-request Thu Dec 6 10:50:36 2001 From: "Jon Strang" To: Cc: Subject: RE: oh speaking fo tickets Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 10:48:49 -0500 > Oh let's throw in the arguement I pay taxes and should be able to use > the streets too, as long as I'm not endagering anyone else. If a squid > kid wants to wheelie on an empty road.. by all means.. It wasn't an empty road. So much for that argument. And you *are* able to use the roads, within the limits of the law, as are the rest of us. The roads aren't there as your playground or runway for displaying the latest in motorcycle stoppie fashion, they are there for plain, boring, transportation. But you did a stoppie with people in front of you. The officer, as is his prerogative, determined that it was reckless. If you think he's wrong, hire an attorney and go to court. In any case, hire an attorney and go to court...this (alleged) infraction is on its way to DUI territory as far as the penalties you're looking at (counting insurance, etc). > Are we going > to start banning the legal use of public shadowboxing because if > someone were near they could get socked in the nose? No, but your right to shadow box ends when there is a chance you might clobber someone else. If you were swinging your fists wildly in a metro station at rush hour, you'd deserve to be arrested. Not for shadow boxing per se....just as you didn't get a ticket for "very cool stoppie" or "bad-boy posing." By definition of public roads, the roads may be used by others. Besides the obvious 6 mile stretches in Montana, you *always* have a chance of someone pulling into the road, coming around the corner, or otherwise being unseen and suddenly in your path. > who's whining? I'm just debating legal merit and trying to beat the > ticket because I feel that particular thing shouldn't be a crime. On DC Cycles? WTF? I don't think the judge you'll be in front of gives a rat's ass what legal precedents you (or any of the rest of us) set in DC Cycles. And it sure sounded like a whine when I read the initial post. A 2200Hz/105dB whine, kinda like a bearing going bad in a large centrifugal compressor. But I could be wrong...maybe it was a well-thought out opening statement for a debate. > I think all motorcyclists (with capable bikes) should know how to, and > be allowed to, use their braking to the maxiumum, even if it *LOOKS* > like a stunt. We dont need "feel good" unpractical laws. They are allowed to...on private property and on the racetrack. I doubt the cop would've ticketed you if you were really practicing your braking in an abandoned parking lot. Especially if you explained what you were doing with the appropriate "yes sir" and "no sir" interspersed as necessary. But you didn't. You did a freakin' stoppie in traffic with people in front of you. You endangered THEM. Anyone behind you was also endangered...just as if you slammed on the brakes without warning while driving down the road in your car. That is why you got the ticket. > if it's illegal to use your brakes to the maxium, isn't that kind of > backwards? That's a much needed skill to avoid accidents. Should you > NOT be allowed to use your brakes in a manner that could save your > life, because the bike shifts weight and the rear wheel comes up? If you have to use your brakes to the maximum while on a public road, you or someone else f#cked up, you are in extremis, and you are making a concerted effort to get into a safe state. No ticket for the brake usage... Hypothetical: You're cruising down I-66. The guy in the SUV in front of you (doing 56 in the 55mph zone), in the fast lane, decides to "use [his] brakes to the maximum." You get pasted to his rear bumper. Did he do anything wrong? > That's my arguement. Whining.. no. I'm not bitching at all.. did I > bitch about my three hundred dollar speeding ticket last year? no. > Money comes and goes, tickets are just taxes on riding. who cares. > This is about principle though. Not really. You're upset b/c you got gigged. Hey, I understand. I spend as much time as anyone else on one wheel or the other and/or going at an insane speed. But hey, when I get caught, I have to pay. It sucks, I whine, I whine loud, and I know it. --jon From dc-cycles-request Thu Dec 6 10:54:56 2001 From: "Paul Wilson" To: , Subject: Re: braking thread Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 10:51:03 -0500 Perhaps I over-simplified to keep it short and sweet, instead of turning it into a Talmudic discussion of MSF scripture, since 99.9% on the list probably could give a rat's heiny about what the solons at MSF say. ;) [Emoticon added to soften potentially harsh reply.] My intention was to point out that there are other options besides so-called "panic" or maximum braking. I said, "MSF course materials say that swerving is more effective than braking in obstacle avoidance above 20 mph, (damn close to 18 mph don't you think) all other conditions being equal, such as you have a clear path around the obstacle, etc." You left off the second part "all other conditions being equal." As you say a lot is dependent on conditions. A 2 x 4 in the road perpendicular to my path of travel, swerve or even surmount; a deer, stop since it's not stationary and has an unpredictable path; a stalled vehicle with a clear path off to the side, brake then swerve since you need to get around the thing anyway. A jack-knifed tractor-trailer rig blocking both lanes, um, I'd stop for that and not swerve off onto the unpaved shoulder. You also need to consider what vehicles might do. On a crowded exit ramp, a car "drops anchor" in front of me. I can stop, no problem and even keep both wheels on the pavement :), but the guy behind me, who knows, he's half asleep, he's trying to light a cigarette and his '82 Impala (impaler) has crappy brakes. Might be better to swerve around onto the shoulder rather than get a Chevy enema. Everything's highly dependent on factors. My original point was to try to point out the mental aspects of riding and the decision-making process that's part of "good braking technique," which to me seemed sorely lacking in the original "stoppie brings down wrath of PG law enforcement" post. Your reply rightly pointed out that there a many factors to consider. Paul in DC 95 VFR750F ----- Original Message ----- From: > In a message dated 12/5/2001 4:05:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, > pawilson@XXXXXX writes: > > > MSF course materials say that > > swerving is more effective than braking in obstacle avoidance above 20 mph, > > I have to ask, and shor