From dc-cycles-request Fri Dec 1 08:04:48 2000 Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 05:04:38 -0800 (PST) From: Todd Withrow Subject: Re: Coleman's is Coleman's no more To: Tom Fitzpatrick , dc-cycles@XXXXXX > If I had to have warranty work done on my Honda in > this area, I would > take it to Manassas Honda and ask that Mike Sheleen > work on it. Same > thing with buying a new Honda in this area. I would > buy it from them. > They are good people. > > Tom Fitzpatrick Celtic Racing Back in 1996 I went to Manassas Honda looking for an F3, I asked how much they were selling for, I was quoted the MSRP. I said knew what the listed price was but what would they sell it for. I got the run around for awhile then finally he said he could probably come down a few hundred. I asked if they would match another dealers price, he said "Sure". When I told him Shenandoah Honda was selling them for about $800 below list, he said he would not match it. "OK" says I, I don't mind driving 50 miles for $500. Went back to Shenandoah Honda last spring and bought my VTR for what Manassas Honda wanted to sell me an F3 for in 1996. Plus they threw in $100 worth of accessories and everything I buy there is 20% off since I bought the bikie there. They made a diehard customer out of me. I bought my leathers and my Cordura stuff through them. It is the only dealership I have been in where I get a friendly smile as opposed to a predatory grin from the salesman. Just my experience. Todd ===== AIM: Inf DS http://www.geocities.com/mtwithrow __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From dc-cycles-request Fri Dec 1 08:15:53 2000 Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 05:15:38 -0800 (PST) From: Glenn Dysart Subject: Re: Coleman's is Coleman's no more To: Todd Withrow , Tom Fitzpatrick , dc-cycles@XXXXXX Where is this dealership located? Glenn --- Todd Withrow wrote: > Shenandoah Honda was selling them for about $800 > below > list, he said he would not match it. "OK" says I, I > don't mind driving 50 miles for $500. > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From dc-cycles-request Fri Dec 1 08:43:04 2000 Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2000 08:44:28 -0500 From: "Steven C. Di Pietro" To: pattonme@XXXXXX CC: dc-cycles@XXXXXX Subject: Re: power sprayer for painting --------------DC02BA3397F1C8112B738379 Matthew Patton wrote: > Anyone here do their own painting? I'm looking to borrow a air driven paint sprayer to paint a small piece or two. Anyone have some stock of Urethane reducer on hand? I got some stuff from Color-Rite but apparently not everything I needed. I think I'm going to try to weazle the actual color codes (Dupont/PPG) out of Honda so next time I don't have to pay such rediculous prices... > > Matthew, I don't have a sprayer or painting accessories, but at the Color Rite web site they have paint codes. Maybe the ones you want. They're at: http://www.color-rite.com/index.cfm Click on Paint Application guides at the bottom of the page. Steven C. Di Pietro Assistant National Director Suzuki Owners Club USA http://www.soc-usa.org --------------DC02BA3397F1C8112B738379  

Matthew Patton wrote:

Anyone here do their own painting? I'm looking to borrow a air driven paint sprayer to paint a small piece or two. Anyone have some stock of Urethane reducer on hand? I got some stuff from Color-Rite but apparently not everything I needed. I think I'm going to try to weazle the actual color codes (Dupont/PPG) out of Honda so next time I don't have to pay such rediculous prices...
 
 
Matthew,
                I don't have a sprayer or painting accessories, but at the Color Rite web site they have paint codes. Maybe the ones you want. They're at:

http://www.color-rite.com/index.cfm

Click on Paint Application guides at the bottom of the page.

Steven C. Di Pietro
Assistant National Director
Suzuki Owners Club USA
http://www.soc-usa.org
 
  --------------DC02BA3397F1C8112B738379-- From dc-cycles-request Fri Dec 1 09:15:31 2000 From: "Bruce Norton" To: Subject: Re: Coleman's is Coleman's no more Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 09:15:42 -0500 Winchester, on Rt. 7 at I-81. Bruce ----- Original Message ----- From: "Glenn Dysart" > Where is this dealership located? > > Glenn > > --- Todd Withrow wrote: > > > Shenandoah Honda was selling them for about $800 > > below > > list, he said he would not match it. "OK" says I, I > > don't mind driving 50 miles for $500. > > > From dc-cycles-request Fri Dec 1 09:24:05 2000 Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 09:23:59 -0500 (EST) From: Kirk Roy To: DC-Cycles Mailing List Subject: Re: Coleman's is Coleman's no more On Fri, 1 Dec 2000, Todd Withrow wrote: > Back in 1996 I went to Manassas Honda looking for an F3, I asked how > much they were selling for, I was quoted the MSRP. SNIP I've got a better story. On the way back from Ohio I stopped in at the dealership in Hagerstown to get a headlight bulb (mine had blown out on the way and it was getting dark). They had both a used KLX and a new KLX sitting on the floor. I asked what they were selling the used KLX for and they quoted me a pretty high price (over $4k). Then I asked what they retail for and the guy says $4699. Then I asked him what they would sell the new one for - $5199 (or something like that, above MSRP). I stood there waiting for the punchline which never came. So, I turned around and walked out. I was decked out in my aerostich, carrying a $300 helmet, on a new bike with $500 worth of luggage, etc. I looked like someone who spends a significant chunk of $$$s on bike stuff. Within a couple months I had a new KLX (from another dealer, duh) and a KE100. Shortly after that my brother also bought a new KLX. I would've been happy to have bought both KLXs (and the KE100 they had as well) off the floor at the Hagerstown dealership if they would've acted decently. I never did write the "in your face" letter to them... Kirk 2000 Kawasaki KLX300 (http://planetklx.dirtrider.net) 1998 Honda VTR1000 (http://members.nova.org/~kirk/Kirk1.jpg) DCOffroad - the Wash, DC area offroad e-mail list: http://www.egroups.com/community/dcoffroad From dc-cycles-request Fri Dec 1 09:33:02 2000 To: mtwithrow@XXXXXX, dc-cycles@XXXXXX Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 09:27:30 -0500 Subject: Re: Coleman's is Coleman's no more X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,3-11,15-16,20-21,23-24,26-27,29 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 From: Tom Fitzpatrick On Fri, 1 Dec 2000 05:04:38 -0800 (PST) Todd Withrow writes: > > Went back to Shenandoah Honda last spring and bought > my VTR for what Manassas Honda wanted to sell me an F3 > for in 1996. > Todd > > ===== That's great. I'm glad it worked out for you. But it is difficult to compare prices between the rent and labor market in Northern Virginia, to the rent and labor market 50 miles away. To say nothing of the supply and demand. I wish I could make what I make living and working up there. I live less than 2 miles from the former Coleman's at Potomac Mills. But if I need to go to a Honda dealer, I go to Manassas Honda because they are so much better. For everything that I don't need a dealer for, I go to Rick, of course. Tom Fitzpatrick Celtic Racing (celticracing@XXXXXX) (http://www.celticracing.com) CCS AM#806 1989 Honda GB600RR SPONSORED BY: *Fast Lane Cycles/fastlanecycles@XXXXXX/703-818-8890/ (http://www.fastlanecycles.com) ******SUPER SALE!!! ALL IN-STOCK ITEMS ARE 15% OVER COST DEC. 1&2******; *Barnacle Bill's Racing Leathers - barnacle@XXXXXX (http://www.racingleather.com) From dc-cycles-request Fri Dec 1 10:35:42 2000 Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 07:35:21 -0800 (PST) From: Steve Beck Subject: Timonium races To: dc-cycles@XXXXXX Does anyone on the list know if the indoor races in Timonium Maryland are still being held at the Fairgrounds in Timonium MD. They use to have them during the month of December. I think it was a Baltimore club that sponsored them. Steve Beck __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From dc-cycles-request Fri Dec 1 10:44:12 2000 From: "Cedric Bernescut" To: "dc-cycles@dc-cycles. org (E-mail)" Subject: Amtrak Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 10:43:01 -0500 I vaguely recall someone on the list posting a description of the Amtrak service for taking your bike with you on a trip. Anyone had any experience with this service? Cedric 1996 CBR600F3 Annandale, VA From dc-cycles-request Fri Dec 1 11:11:06 2000 To: dc-cycles@XXXXXX Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2000 08:09:48 -0800 From: "Matthew Patton" X-Sent-Mail: off Subject: VFR frontend opinions X-Sender-Ip: 209.117.173.31 Content-Language: en Those of you who ride VFR's, what is your opinion of the front brakes and fork/springs? Is it a good handling setup as is? The unit I"m looking at is from a '95 or '96 750cc version. theglobe.com Your friendly full-service integrated online community. http://www.theglobe.com From dc-cycles-request Fri Dec 1 11:11:17 2000 Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 11:11:11 -0500 (EST) From: Kirk Roy To: DC-Cycles Mailing List Subject: Re: Timonium races On Fri, 1 Dec 2000, Steve Beck wrote: > Does anyone on the list know if the indoor races in Timonium Maryland > are still being held at the Fairgrounds in Timonium MD. They use to > have them during the month of December. I think it was a Baltimore > club that sponsored them. Aye, check it out: http://www.bctra.com/ Kirk 2000 Kawasaki KLX300 (http://planetklx.dirtrider.net) 1998 Honda VTR1000 (http://members.nova.org/~kirk/Kirk1.jpg) DCOffroad - the Wash, DC area offroad e-mail list: http://www.egroups.com/community/dcoffroad From dc-cycles-request Fri Dec 1 11:22:37 2000 Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2000 11:15:47 -0500 From: Dale Horstman Subject: Re: Coleman's is Coleman's no more To: Tom Fitzpatrick Cc: dc-cycles@XXXXXX Tom Fitzpatrick wrote: > > Coleman's has been sold for quite a while now. It is Powerride or > Powersports or some such. Yep, it used to be Coleman Poser Sport. Now it's Poserride Sport. :) Same crap dealer, different name. > If I had to have warranty work done on my Honda in this area, I would > take it to Manassas Honda and ask that Mike Sheleen work on it. Same > thing with buying a new Honda in this area. I would buy it from them. > They are good people. Also note that Manassas Honda is really Manassas Honda/Kawasaki. They do good work on Kawasaki's, too. I've had good experiences with them (backordered parts notwithstanding...) Actually, BugSlayer is at MHK today, the oil cooler finally arrived from Japan. Hopefully this will solve the problems I've been having. Horkster -- Dale Horstman (the Horkster) the.horkster@XXXXXX Dale City, Virginia, USA, Earth 1998 Kawasaki Concours - BugSlayer (on loan from the wife) 1999 Kawasaki Concours - Grape Nehi (hers, too) 1982 Suzuki GS850G (mine?) From dc-cycles-request Fri Dec 1 11:32:42 2000 To: dc-cycles@XXXXXX Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2000 08:31:53 -0800 From: "Matthew Patton" X-Sent-Mail: off Subject: MC paint matching X-Sender-Ip: 209.117.173.31 Content-Language: en I've been talking to various parties and assuming Color-Rite isn't telling fibs, they are apparently the ONLY company that makes MC body colors? They don't have any PPG/Dupont cross-over codes. And they insisted that Honda Corporate buys all of their paint from them. Can that really be true? Talk about sitting pretty with a monopoly position. Frankly I'm surprised Dupont or PPG hasn't weighed in on the market and offer their vastly wider capabilities to MC manufacturers. What does Honda Japan use for paint? Or Triumph or anybody else. Anyone know? theglobe.com Your friendly full-service integrated online community. http://www.theglobe.com From dc-cycles-request Fri Dec 1 11:45:13 2000 From: "Christopher Weaver" To: Subject: WTB: Race YSR Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 11:46:29 -0800 Before I go up to Pennsylvania or further, does anyone on this list have a Yamaha YSR50 for sale or know someone who does? Cheers, Chris Weaver '98 VTR1000F www.dccycles.com From dc-cycles-request Fri Dec 1 11:48:27 2000 From: eschelzig@XXXXXX To: the.horkster@XXXXXX, dc-cycles@XXXXXX Subject: RE: Coleman's is Coleman's no more Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 11:47:49 -0500 The Kawasaki sales license seems to have been lost in the transfer from Coleman's to Powerride (or sometime thereabouts). Maybe that's why Manassas Honda picked up the Kawa dealership as well. I just bought my new KLR from Freestate (near FedEx Field in Maryland), and thus far have few complaints about the process. The 500 mile service was quick and relatively reasonably priced (the cost was less than the estimate by $20). Who knows whether my positive impressions are based on the slow winter season being upon us, but so far, so good. Besides Kawasaki, Freestate also has (and this is from memory, so don't quote me) Suzuki and Honda, and KTM, if I'm not mistaken. Erik KLR650 A15 -----Original Message----- From: Dale Horstman [mailto:the.horkster@XXXXXX] Sent: Friday, December 01, 2000 11:16 AM To: Tom Fitzpatrick Cc: dc-cycles@XXXXXX Subject: Re: Coleman's is Coleman's no more Tom Fitzpatrick wrote: > > Coleman's has been sold for quite a while now. It is Powerride or > Powersports or some such. Yep, it used to be Coleman Poser Sport. Now it's Poserride Sport. :) Same crap dealer, different name. > If I had to have warranty work done on my Honda in this area, I would > take it to Manassas Honda and ask that Mike Sheleen work on it. Same > thing with buying a new Honda in this area. I would buy it from them. > They are good people. Also note that Manassas Honda is really Manassas Honda/Kawasaki. They do good work on Kawasaki's, too. I've had good experiences with them (backordered parts notwithstanding...) Actually, BugSlayer is at MHK today, the oil cooler finally arrived from Japan. Hopefully this will solve the problems I've been having. Horkster -- Dale Horstman (the Horkster) the.horkster@XXXXXX Dale City, Virginia, USA, Earth 1998 Kawasaki Concours - BugSlayer (on loan from the wife) 1999 Kawasaki Concours - Grape Nehi (hers, too) 1982 Suzuki GS850G (mine?) From dc-cycles-request Fri Dec 1 12:05:48 2000 Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 12:04:32 -0500 To: dc-cycles@XXXXXX From: Sean Jordan Subject: Kawasaki dealers was: Coleman's is Coleman's no more Many local Kawasaki dealers lost their license when they were bought by corporations. Both Coleman and Cycle Sport lost their Kawi status do to this. By-the-by, there's a new Kawasaki dealer on Rt. 606, right before you get into Herndon. Their right on Douglas ct., next to D&B Rentals. I've bought parts from them so far, and they've been very nice to deal with. Rhoads Cycles is their name, I believe. -- "For man, maximum excitement is the confrontation of death and the skillful defiance of it." -Ernest Becker (1924-1974) Sean Jordan '93 Honda CBR1000F WERA Novice #230 From dc-cycles-request Fri Dec 1 12:15:59 2000 Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 12:15:51 -0500 From: "Chris Norloff" To: "dc-cycles@dc-cycles. org (E-mail)" , Subject: Re: Amtrak I haven't, but a friend came up from Florida that way. Said it was a good way to go. Sleeping in the seats isn't great, but beds cost more. http://www.amtrak.com/trip/autotrain.html Chris Norloff ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: "Cedric Bernescut" Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 10:43:01 -0500 >I vaguely recall someone on the list posting a description of the Amtrak >service for taking your bike with you on a trip. Anyone had any experience >with this service? > >Cedric >1996 CBR600F3 >Annandale, VA > > From dc-cycles-request Fri Dec 1 12:20:13 2000 Subject: RE: Coleman's is Coleman's no more To: Dc-Cycles@XXXXXX From: jitabashi@XXXXXX Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 12:19:51 -0500 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on WBLN0014/Facility/World Bank(Release 5.0.3 (Intl)|21 March 2000) at 12/01/2000 12:19:56 PM James Itabashi The World Bank Group Site 8 SMS Administrator ISGCR - ISGITC 202-458-1697 x.81697 I2-165D jitabashi@XXXXXX ----- Forwarded by James Itabashi/Person/World Bank on 12/01/2000 12:19 PM ----- James Itabashi To: Eschelzig@XXXXXX 12/01/2000 cc: 12:11 PM Subject: RE: Coleman's is Coleman's no more(Document link: James Itabashi) 81697 ISGCR The reason Powerride lost Kaw is that no company that is publicly traded can carry/sell Kawawsaki. When Powerride bought Colman they didn't know this and therefore lost the line, the idiots did not research this before buying Coleman. This happened to them to a couple of other dealerships they bought. James Itabashi The World Bank Group Site 8 SMS Administrator ISGCR - ISGITC 202-458-1697 x.81697 I2-165D jitabashi@XXXXXX eschelzig@icij. org To: The.Horkster@XXXXXX, Dc-Cycles@XXXXXX cc: 12/01/2000 Subject: RE: Coleman's is Coleman's no more 11:47 AM The Kawasaki sales license seems to have been lost in the transfer from Coleman's to Powerride (or sometime thereabouts). Maybe that's why Manassas Honda picked up the Kawa dealership as well. I just bought my new KLR from Freestate (near FedEx Field in Maryland), and thus far have few complaints about the process. The 500 mile service was quick and relatively reasonably priced (the cost was less than the estimate by $20). Who knows whether my positive impressions are based on the slow winter season being upon us, but so far, so good. Besides Kawasaki, Freestate also has (and this is from memory, so don't quote me) Suzuki and Honda, and KTM, if I'm not mistaken. Erik KLR650 A15 -----Original Message----- From: Dale Horstman [mailto:the.horkster@XXXXXX] Sent: Friday, December 01, 2000 11:16 AM To: Tom Fitzpatrick Cc: dc-cycles@XXXXXX Subject: Re: Coleman's is Coleman's no more Tom Fitzpatrick wrote: > > Coleman's has been sold for quite a while now. It is Powerride or > Powersports or some such. Yep, it used to be Coleman Poser Sport. Now it's Poserride Sport. :) Same crap dealer, different name. > If I had to have warranty work done on my Honda in this area, I would > take it to Manassas Honda and ask that Mike Sheleen work on it. Same > thing with buying a new Honda in this area. I would buy it from them. > They are good people. Also note that Manassas Honda is really Manassas Honda/Kawasaki. They do good work on Kawasaki's, too. I've had good experiences with them (backordered parts notwithstanding...) Actually, BugSlayer is at MHK today, the oil cooler finally arrived from Japan. Hopefully this will solve the problems I've been having. Horkster -- Dale Horstman (the Horkster) the.horkster@XXXXXX Dale City, Virginia, USA, Earth 1998 Kawasaki Concours - BugSlayer (on loan from the wife) 1999 Kawasaki Concours - Grape Nehi (hers, too) 1982 Suzuki GS850G (mine?) From dc-cycles-request Fri Dec 1 12:25:59 2000 Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 09:25:44 -0800 (PST) From: "Louis F. Caplan" Subject: Re: Amtrak To: dc-cycles@XXXXXX >I vaguely recall someone on the list posting a description of the Amtrak >service for taking your bike with you on a trip. Anyone had any experience >with this service? Friend of mine did it a couple of times. Make sure you take a tank bag, or something detachable, as once they load the bike up, you can't access it until they unload at the destination. One time they didn't strap his bike to the platform correctly, and it fell over during the trip. Took a lot of "discussion" but they finally coughed up the dough for the repairs. Louis __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From dc-cycles-request Fri Dec 1 12:29:37 2000 From: "Paul Wilson" To: "dc cycles" Subject: Re: Amtrak Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 12:22:00 -0500 That would be Amtrak's AutoTrain service between Lorton and Sanford, (near Orlando) FL. There are no intermediate stops on this overnight trip. Bikes roll on and off the railroad cars. Not sure who rides or pushes them (you I hope) since Amtrak personnel drive the cars on and off. They are also tied down in some fashion and bikes ride for considerably less than cars. They go "wet", so no draining of fluids, etc. You, as a passenger have either coach, economy sleeper or deluxe sleeper options. Amtrak did haul some bikes last summer from Boston to Minot, ND, jumping off point for Sturgis. In that case they were palleted and hauled in baggage cars. That was a one time deal. At present only the Lorton-Sanford service is offered. www.amtrak.com website shows fares for motorcycles on the AutoTrain. Hope that helps. I have not used the bike service, but the family used the AutoTrain on a car trip many years ago. Paul in DC 1991 CB750 http://users.erols.com/pawilson ----- Original Message ----- From: Cedric Bernescut To: dc-cycles@dc-cycles. org (E-mail) Sent: Friday, December 01, 2000 10:43 AM Subject: Amtrak > I vaguely recall someone on the list posting a description of the Amtrak > service for taking your bike with you on a trip. Anyone had any experience > with this service? > > Cedric > 1996 CBR600F3 > Annandale, VA > > From dc-cycles-request Fri Dec 1 13:28:30 2000 To: the.horkster@XXXXXX Cc: dc-cycles@XXXXXX Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 13:22:07 -0500 Subject: Re: Coleman's is Coleman's no more X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 4-5,8-9,11-49,51-52,54-55,57 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 From: Tom Fitzpatrick Actually, Coleman Sr. no longer owns it, and if any Coleman is still involved in "management", it is at the Falls Church location. Although the renaisance that I had hoped for with the change in management did not come to pass, these are new people, making the same old mistakes. A lot of good people left - many to Manassas Honda, as an example. Coleman's is an interesting story. I hope that someday I build a motorcycle shop on top of the equivalent of a future Ballston Metro Station. On Fri, 01 Dec 2000 11:15:47 -0500 Dale Horstman writes: > Tom Fitzpatrick wrote: > > > > Coleman's has been sold for quite a while now. It is Powerride or > > Powersports or some such. > > Yep, it used to be Coleman Poser Sport. Now it's Poserride Sport. > :) > Same crap dealer, different name. > > > If I had to have warranty work done on my Honda in this area, I > would > > take it to Manassas Honda and ask that Mike Sheleen work on it. > Same > > thing with buying a new Honda in this area. I would buy it from > them. > > They are good people. > > Also note that Manassas Honda is really Manassas Honda/Kawasaki. > They > do good work on Kawasaki's, too. I've had good experiences with > them > (backordered parts notwithstanding...) > > Actually, BugSlayer is at MHK today, the oil cooler finally arrived > from Japan. Hopefully this will solve the problems I've been > having. > > Horkster > > -- > Dale Horstman (the Horkster) > the.horkster@XXXXXX > Dale City, Virginia, USA, Earth > > 1998 Kawasaki Concours - BugSlayer (on loan from the wife) > 1999 Kawasaki Concours - Grape Nehi (hers, too) > 1982 Suzuki GS850G (mine?) Tom Fitzpatrick Celtic Racing (celticracing@XXXXXX) (http://www.celticracing.com) CCS AM#806 1989 Honda GB600RR SPONSORED BY: *Fast Lane Cycles/fastlanecycles@XXXXXX/703-818-8890/ (http://www.fastlanecycles.com) ******SUPER SALE!!! ALL IN-STOCK ITEMS ARE 15% OVER COST DEC. 1&2******; *Barnacle Bill's Racing Leathers - barnacle@XXXXXX (http://www.racingleather.com) From dc-cycles-request Fri Dec 1 14:06:41 2000 From: Jonathan.Kalmes@XXXXXX To: dc-cycles@XXXXXX Subject: RE: Amtrak Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 14:05:12 -0500 Looks like the person loading would be you. :) Taken directly from Amtrak's site: "A limited number of spaces are also available to transport motorcycles. Only standard, factory-model two-wheel motorcycles can be accepted. We cannot carry motorcycles with side cars. Passengers assist in securing and removing their motorcycles." http://www.amtrak.com/trip/autospecial.html --smthng '95 Yamaha YZF 600 - "Funbike" '96 Honda Shadow ACE 1100 - "Comfy slug" From dc-cycles-request Fri Dec 1 14:17:12 2000 From: "Gary Foreman" To: Subject: RE: Amtrak Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 14:17:46 -0500 That would be even better, wouldn't it? I wouldn't want some idiot loading my bike. I have used them before to transport the car. They just drive it right in the boxcar. Same with a cycle I'm sure. > Looks like the person loading would be you. :) > From dc-cycles-request Fri Dec 1 14:34:46 2000 Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 11:34:37 -0800 (PST) From: "Louis F. Caplan" Subject: MD 20 20 Open... To: DC-Cycles Mason Dixon 20 * 20 registration is now open. http://www.MasonDixon20-20.org/ Please notice on the entry form page, to register by APRIL 16,2001, this is to ensure that we will have your shirt at registration. "IF" you register after that we can't guarantee your shirt will be at the rally "BUTT" you will still receive the same shirt and other goodies only several weeks later. We are doing everything possible to make this a challenging and rewarding rally to those that choose to enter, regardless of rally experience level. Hint: this rally is being designed to level the playing field from the BIG DOG w/GPS and fuel cells to the rookie w/stock tank and paper maps. Other than AAA maps, a DELORME or ADC state map book may be useful. Good Luck to All, Louis ===== "Admiral" Louis Caplan 1998 Kawasaki Concours Alexandria, VA Co-Planner, MD20-20 http://www.masondixon20-20.org/ Home Page: http://members.nbci.com/Nighthawk700/cycle.htm __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From dc-cycles-request Fri Dec 1 14:49:36 2000 Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 11:49:27 -0800 (PST) From: "Louis F. Caplan" Subject: Annual Cycle Sport Toy Run To: DC-Cycles Hi folks, it's time for my annual plug for the Cycle Sport Toy run. The ride is on Saturday, December 9th. This is a ride that starts from the two Cycle Sport stores (one in Herndon, and one in Springfield). We meet at the stores, gather, up, then ride into Washington DC to a location where the Salvation Army is stocking up toys. These toys are then given out to families that need assistance to have an enjoyable holiday time. >From the phone call I received recently, the information is as follows: Meet at your nearest Cycle Sport Dealership between 10:00 - 11:00 am. (In the past, donuts and coffee have been served). At 11:00 am, the group will ride together into DC. Some years the group stays together better than others, but no one has ever gotten lost that I know of. We ride to "Toyland" where the Salvation Army is located (Varies year to year, depending on where they can get cheap space) and bring in our UNWRAPPED toys. We usually get a 5 minute "Thank you / Who we are / What we do" type speech from the guy heading up the operation, sometimes a tour is offered, as well as coffee, donuts, etc. Some years NBC 4 has been there to tape us leaving. Some years we park in a parking lot, other years we fill up the street, then the sidewalk! Some years have been chilly, some years downright COLD. But you always get that warm feeling when you leave. I do not work for Cycle Sports nor the Salvation Army. I don't even celebrate Christmas. (I'm a Hanukkah kinda guy) But I have done this ride every year since I got my motorcycle and hope some of you will be able to as well. For further information, call your nearest Cycle Sport Store. Springfield: (703) 451-9330 Herndon: (703) 471-6990 Louis ===== "Admiral" Louis Caplan 1998 Kawasaki Concours Alexandria, VA Co-Planner, MD20-20 http://www.masondixon20-20.org/ Home Page: http://members.nbci.com/Nighthawk700/cycle.htm __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From dc-cycles-request Fri Dec 1 15:54:20 2000 To: dc-cycles@XXXXXX Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2000 12:53:54 -0800 From: "Matthew Patton" X-Sent-Mail: off Subject: Sales Alert: Fastlane cycles X-Sender-Ip: 209.117.173.31 Content-Language: en Everything you can lay your eyes on is 15% over cost today and tomorrow. A sampling of the savings: Honda oil filters: 6.19 each (was 11.00) Honda clutch lever (for you NH riders): 2.53 (was 8.95) DID 525 ERV (x-ring chain, top of the line): 135.70 (was 175) Chain Wax (big can): 4.66 (was 7.26) Fair selection of Joe Rocket leather, SIDI boots, etc. If you want me to pick up anything (3 miles from my office) then drop me a line. Unless you're a CB-750 member, call them yourself and order. I might be able to pick the merchandise up for you and ferry it home to Springfield. You'll have to find me there to get it. CB-750 members, I'll ship it to you or if you're in Northern VA, we can meet some place. theglobe.com Your friendly full-service integrated online community. http://www.theglobe.com From dc-cycles-request Fri Dec 1 16:13:53 2000 Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2000 16:09:47 -0500 From: Dale Horstman Subject: Re: Sales Alert: Fastlane cycles To: pattonme@XXXXXX, DC Cycles List Matthew Patton wrote: > Honda oil filters: 6.19 each (was 11.00) Hmm, 15% over cost means that this part is only $5.38. Anyone concerned about a dealer charging you 100% markup on a part? > Honda clutch lever (for you NH riders): 2.53 (was 8.95) Likewise, $2.20. 300% markup. > DID 525 ERV (x-ring chain, top of the line): 135.70 (was 175) Likewise, $118 > Chain Wax (big can): 4.66 (was 7.26) $4.05 Looks like I'll be sticking to mail order... :( Horkster -- Dale Horstman (the Horkster) the.horkster@XXXXXX Dale City, Virginia, USA, Earth 1998 Kawasaki Concours - BugSlayer (on loan from the wife) 1999 Kawasaki Concours - Grape Nehi (hers, too) 1982 Suzuki GS850G (mine?) From dc-cycles-request Fri Dec 1 16:43:47 2000 To: "Dale Horstman" Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2000 13:43:28 -0800 From: "Matthew Patton" Cc: dc-cycles@XXXXXX X-Sent-Mail: off Subject: Re: Sales Alert: Fastlane cycles X-Sender-Ip: 209.117.173.31 Content-Language: en I don't have a DennisKirk catalogue in front of me. but having ordered these selfsame parts from them before I know for a fact that Fastlane is cheaper this time around. Competition Accessories wants $8 for the oil filter for example. And most DK filters are $8 and up (I can't tell what is compariable without a chart). Actually DK wants $192 for the same chain. I'll stick with Fastlane for these products. Sure mail-order can be cheaper. sometimes by a lot. But I have no qualms support Rick and Co. when they are this good. theglobe.com Your friendly full-service integrated online community. http://www.theglobe.com From dc-cycles-request Fri Dec 1 18:31:51 2000 Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2000 18:02:27 -0500 From: Bill Huson To: Dale Horstman CC: pattonme@XXXXXX, DC Cycles List Subject: Re: Sales Alert: Fastlane cycles Yes, Dale, stick to mail order and never, EVER consider going into the retail business, With any luck, the next toime you bust a critical part many miles from home port some *greedy* bugger who is selling said $10 part that cost him/her $5 in an effort to cover the $25/$50 per square foot nut on his/her store (+ licenses, wages, insurance etc) will still be in business. Then you won't have to hang out at the East Bugsplat bus station for six days waiting for the mail order delevary! Bill Dale Horstman wrote: > Matthew Patton wrote: > > > Honda oil filters: 6.19 each (was 11.00) > > Hmm, 15% over cost means that this part is only $5.38. Anyone > concerned about a dealer charging you 100% markup on a part? > > > Honda clutch lever (for you NH riders): 2.53 (was 8.95) > > Likewise, $2.20. 300% markup. > > > DID 525 ERV (x-ring chain, top of the line): 135.70 (was 175) > > Likewise, $118 > > > Chain Wax (big can): 4.66 (was 7.26) > > $4.05 > > Looks like I'll be sticking to mail order... :( > > Horkster > -- > Dale Horstman (the Horkster) > the.horkster@XXXXXX > Dale City, Virginia, USA, Earth > > 1998 Kawasaki Concours - BugSlayer (on loan from the wife) > 1999 Kawasaki Concours - Grape Nehi (hers, too) > 1982 Suzuki GS850G (mine?) From dc-cycles-request Fri Dec 1 18:58:38 2000 From: "Paul Wilson" To: "dc cycles" Subject: Re: Sales Alert: Fastlane cycles Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2000 18:53:05 -0500 I support local shops if they've got decent, near mail order prices and good customer service and treat me as an intelligent human who's not there to be ripped off. Maybe I'm old fashioned, but I like buying things in person. A mail order joint in Ohio isn't going to get my bike back on the road in time for a Sunday ride when it's Saturday morning and I need a critical part. Paul in DC 1991 CB750 http://users.erols.com/pawilson ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Huson > Yes, Dale, stick to mail order and never, EVER consider going into the > retail business, With any luck, the next toime you bust a critical part > many miles from home port some *greedy* bugger who is selling said $10 > part that cost him/her $5 in an effort to cover the $25/$50 per square > foot nut on his/her store (+ licenses, wages, insurance etc) will still > be in business. Then you won't have to hang out at the East Bugsplat > bus station for six days waiting for the mail order delevary! > > Bill From dc-cycles-request Fri Dec 1 21:40:51 2000 Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2000 18:40:24 -0800 (PST) From: Arlington Subject: re: Amtrak Autotrain To: dc-cycles@XXXXXX For a detailed write-up of taking the autotrain w/moto, see http://www.verrill.com/tripreports/Florida97/DaytonaOnTheAutotrain.htm BTW, this is a wonderful m-cycling site by a local guy (who is unfortunately laid-up as a result of a crash on the Del. Memorial Bridge). -Aaron ___________________________________________________ GO.com Mail Get Your Free, Private E-mail at http://mail.go.com From dc-cycles-request Sat Dec 2 07:27:36 2000 From: daniel_ex250@XXXXXX To: dc-cycles@XXXXXX Subject: gsxr swap ability Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2000 07:28:55 -0800 anyone know if the 99 gsxr 600 and the 96-99 gsxr 750 have the same fork diameter? (or if the tripple trees can be swapped?) I have two wrecked gsxr's, one rear end, one front end... so i'm trying to see if I can have a 600 front end on a 750. Danny From dc-cycles-request Sat Dec 2 13:41:33 2000 Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2000 13:38:28 -0500 From: Dale Horstman To: Bill Huson CC: DC Cycles List Subject: Re: Sales Alert: Fastlane cycles Bill Huson wrote: > > Yes, Dale, stick to mail order and never, EVER consider going into the > retail business, I was just under the impression that a 15% profit margin was doing pretty good, evidently that isn't the case for motorcycle dealerships.... I got the same sales flyer. It just didn't sound like much of a 'sale' to me. Whatever. Horkster -- Dale Horstman (the Horkster) the.horkster@XXXXXX Dale City, VA, USA, Earth 1998 Kawasaki Concours - BugSlayer (on loan from the wife) 1999 Kawasaki Concours - Grape Nehi (her's too) 1982 Suzuki GS850G - (mine?) From dc-cycles-request Sat Dec 2 15:01:59 2000 Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2000 14:58:25 -0500 From: Bill Huson To: Dale Horstman CC: DC Cycles List Subject: Re: Sales Alert: Fastlane cycles Dale Horstman wrote: > Bill Huson wrote: > > > > Yes, Dale, stick to mail order and never, EVER consider going into the > > retail business, > > I was just under the impression that a 15% profit margin was doing > pretty good, evidently that isn't the case for motorcycle > dealerships.... No way. Grcery stores can opperate on a 15% to 18% gross profit margin because they turn over the merchendise about 28 X a year, meaaning if the store holds $100,000 worth of munchies they gross 28 X per year. A retail bizz like m/c shops is lucky to turn parts and accessories 4 X year. lot of dusty stock to satsify the oddball customer needs. Therefore, a 100% margin on said stock is needed to make the store viable. Big tickee items are less profit, in my store 15% to 25% on the three digit price tags. Overall profit goal about 35%. Cost of keeping enough smiling faces so that a customer didn't feel neglected about 28% of gross. Landlord got 5% of the top gaurenteed. Toss in workmans comp, utilities, supplies, and staying solvent becomes a challange. In short 15% is a laugher. Mail order houses ned more than that to stay alive. Bill From dc-cycles-request Sat Dec 2 16:05:21 2000 From: "Danny Thompson" To: Subject: for sale Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2000 16:00:06 -0500 '96 Timberwolf 6 x 10 enclosed trailer. '00 Suzuki SV650, 1000 miles. E-mail or call for more info (540) 349 - 9992 Danny '00 SV '99 SV (race bike) Novice #903 www.onewayracing.org Sponsored by: Shen Valley Trailers: www.shenvalleywarrenton.com, toll free @ 888-743-6825 Blalock Cycle: www.blalockcycle.com, 540-347-4591 From dc-cycles-request Sat Dec 2 17:11:08 2000 From: FGrefe@XXXXXX Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2000 17:10:33 EST Subject: Morton's vs. Waugh To: dc-cycles@XXXXXX I went down to Morton's BMW today and then over the Waugh H-D. Morton's was having an open house with free BBQ, test rides, and door prizes. Waugh was having G. Gordon Liddy signing his Stacked and Packed calendar. Morton's parking lot was stuffed full of bikes with lots of people hanging out talking in the parking lot. At Waugh I parked next to the 3 other bikes. The cars/trucks were all in the field across the street. Morton's has a fairly small room full of gear and accessories. Waugh is huge inside with 2 full levels. If you like cruiser type gear, hit the lower level for by far the best and biggest selection of stuff that I've seen in the area. Morton's had a BMW K1 in the parking lot. Waugh had a $45,000 sidecar custom in the showroom. Morton's has 1 picnic bench on the front porch. Waugh has several old leather sofas to sit on. I spent about an hour at each place an enjoyed both. It was fun to go right from one to the other for the contrast in people and atmosphere. Fred Grefe GTS1000 From dc-cycles-request Sat Dec 2 17:47:26 2000 From: "Perry Coleman" To: dc-cycles@XXXXXX Subject: Anyone riding today Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2000 17:47:16 -0500 Anyone riding today? I rode from Gaithersburg up to the north side of Baltimore (Putty Hill area) for the afternoon and didn't see more than a half dozen bikes. There was the bike coming southbound on MD 97 up near Glenwood about 11:30am. It was some kind of cruiser, possibly a Harley, being ridden by what might have been a woman. S/He was wearing a leather jacket, full face helmet, etc. We waved. Then, on my way back, I saw a late model BMW oilhead RS-type coming down I-83s onto 695, but I guess he stayed on 83 since I didn't see him after the split. Then there was the Sportster parked in front of Luann's (or whatever that place is up north of Damascus, on MD 27 near I-70.) Finally, two guys on sport bikes northbound on MD 27 passed me near Germantown about 5:00pm. I don't know if they waved - the second guy was looking behind him at the SUV on his tail. It was cold, but my Widder electric vest, in conjunction with my HG Boost pants and FG Kilimanjaro jacket, did its job. My feet were starting to get cold by the last 5 miles or so, but I had forgotten to put on wool socks when I was getting ready. I was just wearing basic white cotton gym socks in my boots. Thermasilk glove liners in my medium-weight gauntlets and a full face helmet completed the ensemble. Beautiful day for a ride, overall. Perry _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com From dc-cycles-request Sun Dec 3 13:05:52 2000 Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2000 13:05:42 -0500 Subject: Those that have... From: Eric Silberg To: Well, it seems I have left the ranks of "those that will" and joined "those that have." Luckily it wasn't bad, and my beloved VFR is only a bit more banged up than I. I was following some friends in a cage last night around Dupont Circle and had to move to the outside lane then turn off. Well, another cage was being stubborn and would let me over, so I slowed to a near crawl (slip clutch, kept the engine revving a bit) and turned in after the cage. As I was getting back on the gas (not even that hard), the rear washed out and I low sided. I jumped up after a short slide and had the pleasure of seeing my bike shoot sparks from the passenger peg and brake pedal. Damage to me: bruised hip, sore shoulder, and probably sore a lot of other things tomorrow morning. Damage to bike: bent brake pedal and lever, bent right clipon (I think), scratched fairings. Look on friends' faces when jumping out of the car in front of me: priceless I always wear my leather jacket, gloves, thick pants (not leather on a Saturday night though) and boots, so that kept my injuries to a minimum. So anyway, what caused it other than too much gas/stupid rider error? I had ridden the bike to dinner and was leaving to go to a party (I hadn't had anything to drink, of course) and didn't realize that the tires (fairly new D207's) were cold again after sitting outside in near 30 degrees (duh). Combine that with starting the turn from the center of the lane (oil) and over a paint line (I saw the darkie that I left so I could tell when the tire started to spin) and I didn't have nearly as much grip as I thought I did. I wasn't using a lot of throttle and was not at a high lean angle - well, until the tire started to slide at least. I was very lucky that there was no one close behind me to run me over and that my bike slid relatively harmlessly down the road. And I had just gotten through my first year of riding unscathed! BTW I have taken the MSF advanced course and have had some other formal training too, but I know that I am not very experienced and I think this is proof of that. Next time I'll remember to warm the tires up EVERY time I get on the bike. Thanks for listening. Keep the sticky side down. Eric Silberg - a bit banged up '94 VFR 750 - a bit banged up From dc-cycles-request Sun Dec 3 13:37:10 2000 Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2000 13:33:40 -0500 From: Bill Huson To: Eric Silberg CC: dc-cycles@XXXXXX Subject: Re: Those that have... Bummer. Glad to hear you survived reletively unscathed. Yes, tires chill down quickly and paint stripes are slick, and my guess would be too much burner wick for conditions. Well, minor bike and body injuries aside, you have a tale to tell at the next pub gathering. Try to keep it down to ONE tale :-) Bill Eric Silberg wrote: > Well, it seems I have left the ranks of "those that will" and joined "those > that have." Luckily it wasn't bad, and my beloved VFR is only a bit more > banged up than I. I was following some friends in a cage last night around > Dupont Circle and had to move to the outside lane then turn off. Well, > another cage was being stubborn and would let me over, so I slowed to a near > crawl (slip clutch, kept the engine revving a bit) and turned in after the > cage. As I was getting back on the gas (not even that hard), the rear > washed out and I low sided. I jumped up after a short slide and had the > pleasure of seeing my bike shoot sparks from the passenger peg and brake > pedal. > > Damage to me: bruised hip, sore shoulder, and probably sore a lot of other > things tomorrow morning. > > Damage to bike: bent brake pedal and lever, bent right clipon (I think), > scratched fairings. > > Look on friends' faces when jumping out of the car in front of me: priceless > > I always wear my leather jacket, gloves, thick pants (not leather on a > Saturday night though) and boots, so that kept my injuries to a minimum. So > anyway, what caused it other than too much gas/stupid rider error? I had > ridden the bike to dinner and was leaving to go to a party (I hadn't had > anything to drink, of course) and didn't realize that the tires (fairly new > D207's) were cold again after sitting outside in near 30 degrees (duh). > Combine that with starting the turn from the center of the lane (oil) and > over a paint line (I saw the darkie that I left so I could tell when the > tire started to spin) and I didn't have nearly as much grip as I thought I > did. I wasn't using a lot of throttle and was not at a high lean angle - > well, until the tire started to slide at least. I was very lucky that there > was no one close behind me to run me over and that my bike slid relatively > harmlessly down the road. And I had just gotten through my first year of > riding unscathed! BTW I have taken the MSF advanced course and have had > some other formal training too, but I know that I am not very experienced > and I think this is proof of that. Next time I'll remember to warm the > tires up EVERY time I get on the bike. Thanks for listening. Keep the > sticky side down. > > Eric Silberg - a bit banged up > '94 VFR 750 - a bit banged up From dc-cycles-request Sun Dec 3 15:39:43 2000 Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2000 15:46:08 -0500 From: "Paul A. Wilson" To: dc-cycles@XXXXXX Subject: Black ice Today I've run across a couple of patches of ice in DC, mostly due to our perpetually leaky water mains. There is one particulary nasty patch on northbound Ohio Drive, as you come underneath the approaches to Memorial Bridge near Constitution Ave. Even though we haven't had snow, below freezing overnight temps will make ice on the streets a constant hazard, especially at night when they're harder to spot. Be careful out there. Sub freezing tmeps will bring on even more water main leaks. They won't bother fixing the minor ones until they become gushers. Paul in DC 91 CB750 From dc-cycles-request Sun Dec 3 16:45:56 2000 From: "Todd Peer" To: "AA DC-Cycles" Subject: Fastlane vs. Mailorder Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 16:42:45 -0500 Don't know if this topic has gone nuke yet, so here's MHO anyway. The markups (from cost) at fastlane for normally acquired bits (filters, levers, etc.) seemed VERY reasonable if you factor in what it would cost you in additional mail charges and time. I like instant consumer fulfillment, so that's worth something to me. But like Dale Horstman, I am a real fan of mailorder for these types of items as I go through them alot (filters, plugs...). Dale and I both ride...a LOT. It makes more sense to purchase a small gross at next to cost then to shuck $11-$12/filter. My friend Craig Johnston picked up the front and rear pit-bull stands this saturday for $170!! I think that's what he told me. Or it may have been $270 with the center triple clamp lift option. Still an awsome deal! I on the other hand, missed out on this excellent sale. Dang! Todd Peer (Springfield, VA) <----------------------------------------> * '91 ST1100, '98 VTR, * '83 VT500c(sold), * '92 CB750 (sold), * '94 XT350 (sold) * SS1k, FiTe V * IBA, AMA, HRCA, HSTA(7615), STOC(487) * 152,000 miles and counting <----------------------------------------> From dc-cycles-request Sun Dec 3 17:37:52 2000 Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2000 17:37:39 EST From: HondaF4Lover@XXXXXX Subject: Re: Black ice To: Try driving in the shit being night blind. Every night I go home from work I grip my steering wheel with white knuckles and pray that I get home okay. I would be happy just to be able to SEE the black ice so I could avoid it. And I live in WV in the country....up and down steep hills. Lotsa fun. lol Be careful around all those cagers in DC. At least that's one thing I don't have to worry too much about. lol Jess In a message dated Sun, 3 Dec 2000 3:41:11 PM Eastern Standard Time, "Paul A. Wilson" writes: << Today I've run across a couple of patches of ice in DC, mostly due to our perpetually leaky water mains. There is one particulary nasty patch on northbound Ohio Drive, as you come underneath the approaches to Memorial Bridge near Constitution Ave. Even though we haven't had snow, below freezing overnight temps will make ice on the streets a constant hazard, especially at night when they're harder to spot. Be careful out there. Sub freezing tmeps will bring on even more water main leaks. They won't bother fixing the minor ones until they become gushers. Paul in DC 91 CB750 >> From dc-cycles-request Sun Dec 3 19:36:00 2000 From: MJordan666@XXXXXX Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 19:35:49 EST Subject: Re: Black ice To: dc-cycles@XXXXXX << I would be happy just to be able to SEE the black ice so I could avoid it. >> That's the problem with black ice - you CAN'T see it Michael J. From dc-cycles-request Mon Dec 4 06:58:07 2000 Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 03:57:25 -0800 (PST) From: "Louis F. Caplan" Subject: Dr. Gridlock at it again... kids on motorcycles To: DC-Cycles Dr. Gridlock finally did a follow-up column to his column about children on motorcycles. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A20073-2000Dec3.html Despite having a few letters from people who talked about using the criteria of having the feet reach the footpegs, and others who talked about the positive experience of taking their children/grandchildren for a ride, Dr. Gridlock threw his support behind MD Delegate Jean Cryor (R-Montgomery) who pre-filed a bill for the 2001 legislative session that would prohibit a child under the age of 12 from riding on the back of a motorcycle. A month ago someone was asking about legislative issues of concern in Maryland... this might be a good one to keep an eye on. I know they tried something like this in Massachusetts a few years ago (started when a divorced mother didn't want her child riding with his dad). I don't know how that went since. However, I'd suggest that MD riders try to get this bill struck down or modified before it gets too far. Louis ===== "Admiral" Louis Caplan 1998 Kawasaki Concours Alexandria, VA Co-Planner, MD20-20 http://www.masondixon20-20.org/ Home Page: http://members.nbci.com/Nighthawk700/cycle.htm __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From dc-cycles-request Mon Dec 4 09:11:20 2000 From: daniel_ex250@XXXXXX To: Eric Silberg , dc-cycles@XXXXXX Subject: Re: Those that have... Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2000 09:12:02 -0800 "Those that have".. welcome to our world . Glad to hear it wasn't worse... it may not seem like it could have been worse, but trust me it could have been worse. See another post I'm going to make today. Danny From dc-cycles-request Mon Dec 4 09:17:13 2000 From: daniel_ex250@XXXXXX To: dc-cycles@XXXXXX Subject: R.I.P. Holeshot Kenny Bynum Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2000 09:17:56 -0800 I'm not sure that he had children. His name was Kenny Bynum, and on the street he was called "holeshot kenny" because he was good at the holeshot and running the quarter mile races. On the street he demonstrated self control and rode within his limits and cautiously, like a lot of 1/4 mile fast guys are known to do. Less than a month ago he was racing on a hayabusa against some of his friends. He had decades of riding experience. He didn't crash from rider error but, Sunday he was riding an 80 cc dirtbike around a parking lot and ran into a brick wall. He wasn't going that fast. It's believed he had a medical incident that temporarily disabled him from controlling the bike and applying the brakes. He suffered internal bleeding/chest injuries and on the way to the hospital he unexpectedly passed. Other than his internal chest injuries he only had minor scrapes. Please dont' ask me futhter details because I wasn't there, those are the accounts of the persons who were there; the person who was riding next to him, the person who ran to his aid, and the persons who immediately went to the hospital to see him, all very long time friends of his. I think he had 2 RF-900's. I think they were lowered. One was red and blue, and one was a blue-ish green color. He had dollar bill and 5 dollar bills on his bike under the clear coat, and a skull and crossbones sticker on the top of his gas tank. I remember him always telling a good story or trying to set up quarter mile races. His most popular hang out spot was down at "the bottoms" in southern MD. He was another person that always had me laughing or smiling, and was an entertaining person. I will definitely miss him, as I'm sure most will, who have had the pleasure to meet him. I pray his family can be strong in their grieving, and I know he will be dearly missed. I will miss you Kenny! Danny From dc-cycles-request Mon Dec 4 09:19:27 2000 From: daniel_ex250@XXXXXX To: "Todd Peer" Cc: "AA DC-Cycles" Subject: Re: Fastlane vs. Mailorder Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2000 09:20:10 -0800 Speaking of stands.. does anyone have that link where you can get both front and rear stands, on sale, for around $127 ? They weren't pitbulls, but still, they were stands. Danny From dc-cycles-request Mon Dec 4 09:36:07 2000 From: "Paul Wilson" To: "dc cycles" Subject: Re: Dr. Gridlock at it again... kids on motorcycles Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 09:26:59 -0500 Unfortunately the Grid declined to print Leon Begeman's letter which said the rider in question was already in violation of a least two or three existing laws if the eyewitness account was accurate. Dr. Gridlock's pronouncements aside, this is one law we don't need. In typical knee-jerk fashion it's a ham fisted solution to a non problem. Physical size is not an issue, provided the passenger can reach the pegs, hold on to either me or the grab rails and exhibit the mental maturity to follow directions. I know several full grown adults who do not pass the final criterion. Paul in DC 1991 CB750 http://users.erols.com/pawilson ----- Original Message ----- From: Louis F. Caplan To: DC-Cycles Sent: Monday, December 04, 2000 6:57 AM Subject: Dr. Gridlock at it again... kids on motorcycles > Dr. Gridlock finally did a follow-up column to his column about children on > motorcycles. > > http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A20073-2000Dec3.html > > Despite having a few letters from people who talked about using the criteria of > having the feet reach the footpegs, and others who talked about the positive > experience of taking their children/grandchildren for a ride, Dr. Gridlock > threw his support behind MD Delegate Jean Cryor (R-Montgomery) who pre-filed a > bill for the 2001 legislative session that would prohibit a child under the age > of 12 from riding on the back of a motorcycle. From dc-cycles-request Mon Dec 4 11:13:18 2000 From: Gawthrop@XXXXXX Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 11:13:00 EST Subject: ABATE of Maryland Response of Delegate Cryor To: dc-cycles@XXXXXX (dc cycles) --part1_e6.e57e553.275d1c8c_boundary (First, let me apologize if this comes in in HTML. I upgraded to AOL 6 and the HTML is a bug waiting to be corrected) In response to your concerns about Delegate Cryor, the following was sent to the ABATE of Maryland membership. If you ride in Maryland, and want to protect your family from unwanted government intrusion, please take the time to send a letter to Delegate Cryor. If you live in Virginia, and Cryor is successful, your next. Maryland Del. Jean Cryor (R-Montgomery) is aiming at riders. (See story below.) She lives at 11700 Ambleside Drive, Potomac, MD 20854. Start sending her letters. Points to focus in on. a. What are the stats indicating a need for this legislation. What are the accident rates? b. Doesn't the Republican Party contend that a limited government should defer to the judgment of an educated people? Isn't this just another example of Government intervention and over reaction? c. What about dwarf 13 years olds whose legs cannot reach the peg? d. Is it the intent to criminalize a family outing? e. What about families that do not own a second car and need to transport the child in an emergency? f. Did the legislator confer with any motorcycle rights organizations to get their experienced input? If so, who did she talk with? A Child on the Back of a Motorcycle: Fun or Folly? Dr. Gridlock can be reached at (703) 279-3200 or by e-mail at drgridlock@XXXXXX. By Ron Shaffer Monday, December 4, 2000; Page B01 In the Oct. 23 column, a horrified Zora Margolis of Washington told of seeing a small child hanging on to a man's coattails as a motorcycle sped up Interstate 95 at 70 mph. She asked whether this was legal. Apparently it is. This prompted a number of responses. A sample:Dear Dr. Gridlock:After reading your letter regarding the child on the back of the motorcycle, Maryland Del. Jean Cryor (R-Montgomery) has pre-filed a bill for the 2001 legislative session that would prohibit a child under the age of 12 from riding on the back of a motorcycle.Kathleen CloughLegislative aideGood luck. Keep me posted.Dear Dr. Gridlock:I think it should be illegal for any motorcyclist to carry a passenger under age 6, as that person isn't old enough to consent to the risks involved in riding on a motorcycle.It's something that goes through my head every time a friend asks for a ride. I make sure they understand the potential consequences of this pleasure.Ethan SmithArlingtonDear Dr. Gridlock:My children have been riding since they could sit on the motorcycle. I have never heard of anyone falling off because of a bump, swerving or sudden stopping, unless they were in an accident. Which, unfortunately, is every rider's fear.I would have to say that as a whole, motorcycle riders are more aware of what is going on around them than the drivers of most vehicles.Leon KowalewskiManassasDear Dr. Gridlock:Motorcycle riders don't hang on by their fingernails. They sit on a seat and hold on to grips of the driver. They aren't in danger at bumps in the road, swerves or sudden stops.Large motorcycles, especially, ride very smoothly and comfortably and safely.I carry my 6-year-old grandson on the back of my motorcycle, and both of us love it. There is no way I'd put him at risk.Steve LaneBethesdaDear Dr. Gridlock:My spouse and I have ridden for more than 40 years and would never put anyone at such risk. Our criteria for allowing a child to ride is to be tall enough to place his/her feet firmly on the foot pegs, to wear an approved helmet that fits and to appreciate the risks.Our oldest grandson, now 15, wasn't allowed to ride until he met our criteria, despite his pleas to be allowed to go.It's hard to believe that this individual would take a child on a motorcycle with such callous disregard for the child's life.Carolyn RocklinFairfaxDear Dr. Gridlock:I think taking children for motorcycle rides is a good idea. In these days of companies marketing violent video games and movies to kids, with drugs and gangs, I think it's more important for children to be with responsible adults, and to learn there's more to life than what people want to sell you.Chris NorloffFalls ChurchDear Dr. Gridlock:It is obvious that the person didn't take the Motorcycle Safety Foundation training that is offered in Maryland and Virginia. I remember the instructors clearly saying that no passengers should be on a motorcycle if they can't reach the foot pegs--something that is difficult for a 4-year-old.Children are so precious--why would a parent put them in such danger?Maxine F. BrownRockvilleThose who do, judging from the letters above, don't think they are. I'm with the delegate in the lead letter.A New Batch of RiddlesHere are this month's license plate riddles. What were the vehicles--make and model-- sporting the following license plates?* WALABY. Submitted by Betty Miller, of Alexandria.* WADA ZU. Submitted by Charlene Heermans, of Burke.New Year's ResolutionsDr. Gridlock is now accepting your New Year's resolutions for local transportation and traffic enforcement officials.For example, be it resolved that D.C. police will station officers to direct traffic at key downtown intersections during rush hours, as is done in New York City and other major cities in the nation.Dr. Gridlock's assistant, Lori Fischer, contributed to this column.You can write to Dr. Gridlock, P.O. Box 3467, Fairfax, Va. 22038-3467, or e-mail him at drgridlock@XXXXXX. The doctor's fax number is 703-352-3908. Please include your full name, town, county, and day and evening phone numbers. Because of the number of responses, Dr. Gridlock cannot take phone calls Bill Gawthrop Maryland "I may disagree with what you have to say, but I shall defend, to the death, your right to say it." Voltaire (1694-1778) --part1_e6.e57e553.275d1c8c_boundary (First, let me apologize if this comes in in HTML.  I upgraded to AOL 6 and
the HTML is a bug waiting to be corrected)
In response to your concerns about Delegate Cryor, the following was sent to
the ABATE of Maryland membership.  If you ride in Maryland, and want to
protect your family from unwanted government intrusion, please take the time
to send a letter to Delegate Cryor.  If you live in Virginia, and Cryor is
successful, your next.

Maryland Del. Jean Cryor (R-Montgomery) is aiming at riders.    (See story
below.)
She lives at  11700 Ambleside Drive, Potomac, MD 20854.
Start sending her letters.  
Points to focus in on.
 a.  What are the stats indicating a need for this legislation.  What are
the accident rates?
 b. Doesn't the Republican Party contend that a limited government should
defer to the judgment of an educated people?  Isn't this just another example
of Government intervention and over reaction?
 c.  What about  dwarf 13 years olds whose legs cannot reach the peg?
 d.   Is it the intent to criminalize a family outing?
 e.   What about families that do not own a second car and need to transport
the child in an emergency?
 f.   Did the legislator confer with any motorcycle rights organizations to
get their experienced input?  If so, who did she talk with?

   
A Child on the Back of a Motorcycle: Fun or Folly?                        
 
       Dr. Gridlock can be reached at (703) 279-3200 or by e-mail at
drgridlock@XXXXXX.

By Ron Shaffer
Monday, December 4, 2000; Page B01
In the Oct. 23 column, a horrified Zora Margolis of Washington told of seeing
a small child hanging on to a man's coattails as a motorcycle sped up
Interstate 95 at 70 mph. She asked whether this was legal. Apparently it is.
This prompted a number of responses. A sample:Dear Dr. Gridlock:After reading
your letter regarding the child on the back of the motorcycle, Maryland Del.
Jean Cryor (R-Montgomery) has pre-filed a bill for the 2001 legislative
session that would prohibit a child under the age of 12 from riding on the
back of a motorcycle.Kathleen CloughLegislative aideGood luck. Keep me
posted.Dear Dr. Gridlock:I think it should be illegal for any motorcyclist to
carry a passenger under age 6, as that person isn't old enough to consent to
the risks involved in riding on! a motorcycle.It's something that goes through
my head every time a friend asks for a ride. I make sure they understand the
potential consequences of this pleasure.Ethan SmithArlingtonDear Dr.
Gridlock:My children have been riding since they could sit on the motorcycle.
I have never heard of anyone falling off because of a bump, swerving or
sudden stopping, unless they were in an accident. Which, unfortunately, is
every rider's fear.I would have to say that as a whole, motorcycle riders are
more aware of what is going on around them than the drivers of most
vehicles.Leon KowalewskiManassasDear Dr. Gridlock:Motorcycle riders don't
hang on by their fingernails. They sit on a seat and hold on to grips of the
driver. They aren't in danger at bumps in the road, swerves or sudden
stops.Large motorcycles, especially, ride very smoothly and comfortably and
safely.I carry my 6-year-old grandson on the back of my motorcycle, and both
o! f us love it. There is no way I'd put him at risk.Steve LaneBethesdaDear Dr.
Gridlock:My spouse and I have ridden for more than 40 years and would never
put anyone at such risk. Our criteria for allowing a child to ride is to be
tall enough to place his/her feet firmly on the foot pegs, to wear an
approved helmet that fits and to appreciate the risks.Our oldest grandson,
now 15, wasn't allowed to ride until he met our criteria, despite his pleas
to be allowed to go.It's hard to believe that this individual would take a
child on a motorcycle with such callous disregard for the child's
life.Carolyn RocklinFairfaxDear Dr. Gridlock:I think taking children for
motorcycle rides is a good idea. In these days of companies marketing violent
video games and movies to kids, with drugs and gangs, I think it's more
important for children to be with responsible adults, and to learn there's
more to life than what people want to sell you.Chris N! orloffFalls ChurchDear
Dr. Gridlock:It is obvious that the person didn't take the Motorcycle Safety
Foundation training that is offered in Maryland and Virginia. I remember the
instructors clearly saying that no passengers should be on a motorcycle if
they can't reach the foot pegs--something that is difficult for a
4-year-old.Children are so precious--why would a parent put them in such
danger?Maxine F. BrownRockvilleThose who do, judging from the letters above,
don't think they are. I'm with the delegate in the lead letter.A New Batch of
RiddlesHere are this month's license plate riddles. What were the
vehicles--make and model-- sporting the following license plates?* WALABY.
Submitted by Betty Miller, of Alexandria.* WADA ZU. Submitted by Charlene
Heermans, of Burke.New Year's ResolutionsDr. Gridlock is now accepting your
New Year's resolutions for local transportation and traffic enforcement
officials.For example, be it r! esolved that D.C. police will station officers
to direct traffic at key downtown intersections during rush hours, as is done
in New York City and other major cities in the nation.Dr. Gridlock's
assistant, Lori Fischer, contributed to this column.You can write to Dr.
Gridlock, P.O. Box 3467, Fairfax, Va. 22038-3467, or e-mail him at
drgridlock@XXXXXX. The doctor's fax number is 703-352-3908. Please
include your full name, town, county, and day and evening phone numbers.
Because of the number of responses, Dr. Gridlock cannot take phone calls





Bill Gawthrop
Maryland

"I may disagree with what you have to say, but I shall defend, to the
death, your right to say it."   Voltaire (1694-1778)
--part1_e6.e57e553.275d1c8c_boundary-- From dc-cycles-request Mon Dec 4 12:41:31 2000 Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2000 12:38:09 -0500 From: Dale Horstman Subject: oil cooler To: DC Cycles List Well, I'm happy to report my terminally backordered oil cooler from Kawasaki finally arrived at the dealer last week. My bike is no longer doing an Exxon Valdez impression whenever I park it now. :) Too bad it's so cold out, or I'd find some excuse to go for a looooooonng ride. I guess I'll just settle for commuting until spring... Ride on! Hork -- Dale Horstman (the Horkster) the.horkster@XXXXXX Dale City, Virginia, USA, Earth 1998 Kawasaki Concours - BugSlayer (on loan from the wife) 1999 Kawasaki Concours - Grape Nehi (hers, too) 1982 Suzuki GS850G (mine?) From dc-cycles-request Mon Dec 4 13:08:56 2000 From: "Razz Man" To: dc-cycles@XXXXXX Subject: Re: Dr. Gridlock at it again... kids on motorcycles Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2000 13:08:44 -0500 This would CRUSH my 8 year old daughter who LOVES to ride on the back of my Motorcycle. She came with me to one of the bike nights at Car Pool and she had a blast!! Razz '99 ZX9R '89 LTD454 '86 LTD454 www.conflictedinterest.com >Unfortunately the Grid declined to print Leon Begeman's letter which said >the rider in question was already in violation of a least two or three >existing laws if the eyewitness account was accurate. Dr. Gridlock's >pronouncements aside, this is one law we don't need. In typical knee-jerk >fashion it's a ham fisted solution to a non problem. Physical size is not >an issue, provided the passenger can reach the pegs, hold on to either me >or >the grab rails and exhibit the mental maturity to follow directions. I >know >several full grown adults who do not pass the final criterion. > _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com From dc-cycles-request Mon Dec 4 14:21:37 2000 From: "Kathleen Loerich" To: "Louis F. Caplan" , "DC-Cycles" Subject: Re: Dr. Gridlock at it again... kids on motorcycles Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 14:14:27 -0500 Below is a letter that I wrote to the Annapolis Capitol after this topic was mentioned in a letter to the editor. ------------------------------- In a recent letter to the editor from Phyliss Kenney, she asked "Why isn't there a law pertaining to young children" riding as passengers on motorcycles. I would suggest the reason is that there isn't a need for one. Intuitively, from personal experience as a motorcycle rider for 29 years, it is rare to see a motorcycle passenger that is a young child, one that is unable to reach the passenger footpegs, unless they are in a side car. I realize that intuition and personal experience are not enough to form an educated opinion. So I took the time to check a couple of sources. The National Highway Transportation Safety Administration maintains a Fatal Accident Reporting System. For 1998, in Maryland there were zero fatal motorcycle accidents involving riders or passengers 13 and under. Maryland information from the State Highway Administration reports on occupant information which indicates that of the group ages 13 and under there were 10 motorcycle occupants involved in accidents. But please note, the same source indicates that there were 20,316 children ages 13 and under involved in automobile accidents. This information does not state how many were injured, but the exposure to automobile injury for children is astronomical compared to exposure to motorcycle injury. Ms. Kenney also refers to the issue of seatbelts on motorcycles. Many who do not ride, hold the notion that seatbelts should be required on motorcycles. There is nothing that is further from the truth. Motorcycle safety training adamantly stresses that a motorcycle rider is more likely to survive an accident if the rider gets away from the motorcycle. In a motorcycle accident, the bike is much heavier than the rider and it goes further and with more force than the person does. A rider's best defense, is to get away and stay away from the motorcycle to avoid being hit by it. A seatbelt in this situation would decrease the chance of survival rather than provide any protection. Since warm weather is prime motorcycle riding time, I would like to implore automobile drivers to be aware of motorcycle riders. There are too many accidents that occur because an automobile driver violates the right-of-way of the motorcycle rider because he or she 'did not see' the motorcycle. Many motorcycle riders take the Motor Vehicle Administration's Motorcycle Safety Program safety courses. During these courses, riders become aware of the fact that safety is their responsiblity and to be aware of potentially dangerous situations. Safety on the roads is the job of every road user, automobiles and motorcycles alike. ----- Original Message ----- From: Louis F. Caplan To: DC-Cycles Sent: Monday, December 04, 2000 06:57 Subject: Dr. Gridlock at it again... kids on motorcycles > Dr. Gridlock finally did a follow-up column to his column about children on > motorcycles. > > http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A20073-2000Dec3.html > > Despite having a few letters from people who talked about using the criteria of > having the feet reach the footpegs, and others who talked about the positive > experience of taking their children/grandchildren for a ride, Dr. Gridlock > threw his support behind MD Delegate Jean Cryor (R-Montgomery) who pre-filed a > bill for the 2001 legislative session that would prohibit a child under the age > of 12 from riding on the back of a motorcycle. > > A month ago someone was asking about legislative issues of concern in > Maryland... this might be a good one to keep an eye on. I know they tried > something like this in Massachusetts a few years ago (started when a divorced > mother didn't want her child riding with his dad). I don't know how that went > since. > > However, I'd suggest that MD riders try to get this bill struck down or > modified before it gets too far. > > Louis > > > ===== > "Admiral" Louis Caplan 1998 Kawasaki Concours > Alexandria, VA > Co-Planner, MD20-20 http://www.masondixon20-20.org/ > > Home Page: http://members.nbci.com/Nighthawk700/cycle.htm > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. > http://shopping.yahoo.com/ > From dc-cycles-request Mon Dec 4 15:02:12 2000 From: Mina Sandusky To: "'dc-cycles@XXXXXX'" Subject: RE: ABATE of Maryland Response of Delegate Cryor Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 15:02:04 -0500 > b. Doesn't the Republican Party contend that a limited government >should defer to the judgment of an educated people? Right. That's why they're against a womans right to choose abortion. Mina Sandusky From dc-cycles-request Mon Dec 4 15:20:03 2000 From: Gawthrop@XXXXXX Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 15:06:22 EST Subject: Under 12 Motorcycle Rider Facts: For your letters To: Gypsylthr@XXXXXX, jayblock@XXXXXX, KathleenLoerich@XXXXXX, gracehauver@XXXXXX, rebel_rider69@XXXXXX, toni2000r@XXXXXX, phil@XXXXXX, wmcrum@XXXXXX, KNKHD47@XXXXXX, JTCJR1@XXXXXX, DOODLEDMC@XXXXXX, shooter6420@XXXXXX, guy3@XXXXXX, strowbridge@XXXXXX, JohnToni@XXXXXX, prez95ocmd@XXXXXX, montcoevents@XXXXXX, waltert@XXXXXX, pjnlinda@XXXXXX, Tinkerbell@XXXXXX, arbor@XXXXXX, bikers@XXXXXX, dwg93@XXXXXX, gavidal@XXXXXX, Aug2867@XXXXXX, bikerdan@XXXXXX, grantjl45@XXXXXX, ddashiel@XXXXXX, hollis.sadoff@XXXXXX, OLD77XL@XXXXXX, kostin@XXXXXX, dwkirby@XXXXXX, jaybo384@XXXXXX, psycoward@XXXXXX, alisa.hoffman@XXXXXX, lawman_mc@XXXXXX, squid126@XXXXXX, Blue72FLH@XXXXXX, wmcrum@XXXXXX, stevied@XXXXXX, Thorvald13@XXXXXX, mdabate@XXXXXX (ABATE of Maryland) CC: GMyles@XXXXXX, dc-cycles@XXXXXX --part1_68.9c8b616.275d533e_boundary The following is from the Maryland State Highway Administration, Office of Traffic And Safety, Traffic Safety Analysis Division, dated 28 November 2000. I obtained it today from the MSHA in response to the bill submitted by Delegate Jean B. Cryor, 11700 Ambleside Drive, Potomac, Maryland 20854. Page 11, Occupant information (Passengers, not operators) 1996 Motorcycle Injuries age 0 to 13: 9 injuries (no deaths) Automobile injuries age 0 to 13: 21,875 injuries (multiple deaths) 1997 Motorcycle injuries age 0 to 13: 11 injuries (no deaths) Automobile injuries age 0 to 13: 20,719 injuries (multiple deaths) 1998 Motorcycle injuries age 0 to 13: 10 injuries (no deaths) Automobile injuries age 0 to 13: 20,326 injuries (multiple deaths) 1999 Motorcycle injuries age 0 to 13: 5 injuries (no deaths) Automobile injuries age 0 to 13: 20,501 injuries (multiple deaths) 2000 Motorcycle injuries age 0 to 13: 4 injuries (no deaths - as of 28 Nov 00) Automobile injuries age 0 to 13: 11,748 injuries (multiple deaths) Clearly, the exceeding small number of injuries associated by motorcycles stands in marked contrast to the injuries sustained in cars. Delegate Cryor's legislation is "Feel Good Legislation" and the article by Dr Gridlock is a disservice to the public for not balancing these figures before advocating restrictive legislation. You have the Delegate's home address. Please feel free to send information copies to Dr Gridlock at drgridlock@XXXXXX Protect your right to decide about your family. Bill Gawthrop Maryland "I may disagree with what you have to say, but I shall defend, to the death, your right to say it." Voltaire (1694-1778) --part1_68.9c8b616.275d533e_boundary The following is from the Maryland State Highway Administration, Office of
Traffic And Safety, Traffic Safety Analysis Division, dated 28 November 2000.
 I obtained it today from the MSHA in response to the bill submitted by
Delegate Jean B. Cryor, 11700 Ambleside Drive, Potomac, Maryland 20854.

Page 11, Occupant information (Passengers, not operators)
1996  Motorcycle Injuries age 0 to 13:   9 injuries (no deaths)
        Automobile injuries age 0 to 13:   21,875 injuries (multiple deaths)

1997  Motorcycle injuries age 0 to 13:   11 injuries (no deaths)
        Automobile injuries age 0 to 13:   20,719 injuries (multiple deaths)

1998  Motorcycle injuries age 0 to 13:   10 injuries (no deaths)
        Automobile injuries age 0 to 13:   20,326 injuries (multiple deaths)

1999  Motorcycle injuries age 0 to 13:    5 injuries (no deaths)
        Automobile injuries age 0 to 13:   20,501 injuries (multiple deaths)

2000  Motorcycle injuries age 0 to 13:    4 injuries (no deaths - as of 28
Nov 00)
        Automobile injuries age 0 to 13:   11,748 injuries (multiple deaths)

Clearly, the exceeding small number of injuries associated by motorcycles
stands in marked contrast to the injuries sustained in cars.  Delegate
Cryor's legislation is "Feel Good Legislation" and the article by Dr Gridlock
is a disservice to the public for not balancing these figures before
advocating restrictive legislation.

You have the Delegate's home address. Please feel free to send information
copies to Dr Gridlock at drgridlock@XXXXXX

Protect your right to decide about your family.



Bill Gawthrop
Maryland

"I may disagree with what you have to say, but I shall defend, to the
death, your right to say it."   Voltaire (1694-1778)
--part1_68.9c8b616.275d533e_boundary-- From dc-cycles-request Mon Dec 4 15:35:03 2000 From: "Christopher Weaver" To: Subject: RE: Under 12 Motorcycle Rider Facts: For your letters Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 15:35:34 -0800 This is a classic example of how statistics can say anything you want them to say. If you enter into the equation the simple fact that there are far more cars than motorcycles on the road, those quoted statistics are fairly meaningless. I'd much rather see stats based on passenger miles or hours. (i.e. 5 deaths per 10,000 passenger miles) Chris Weaver '98 VTR1000F www.dccycles.com -----Original Message----- The following is from the Maryland State Highway Administration, Office of Traffic And Safety, Traffic Safety Analysis Division, dated 28 November 2000. I obtained it today from the MSHA in response to the bill submitted by Delegate Jean B. Cryor, 11700 Ambleside Drive, Potomac, Maryland 20854. Page 11, Occupant information (Passengers, not operators) 1996 Motorcycle Injuries age 0 to 13: 9 injuries (no deaths) Automobile injuries age 0 to 13: 21,875 injuries (multiple deaths) 1997 Motorcycle injuries age 0 to 13: 11 injuries (no deaths) Automobile injuries age 0 to 13: 20,719 injuries (multiple deaths) 1998 Motorcycle injuries age 0 to 13: 10 injuries (no deaths) Automobile injuries age 0 to 13: 20,326 injuries (multiple deaths) 1999 Motorcycle injuries age 0 to 13: 5 injuries (no deaths) Automobile injuries age 0 to 13: 20,501 injuries (multiple deaths) 2000 Motorcycle injuries age 0 to 13: 4 injuries (no deaths - as of 28 Nov 00) Automobile injuries age 0 to 13: 11,748 injuries (multiple deaths) Clearly, the exceeding small number of injuries associated by motorcycles stands in marked contrast to the injuries sustained in cars. Delegate Cryor's legislation is "Feel Good Legislation" and the article by Dr Gridlock is a disservice to the public for not balancing these figures before advocating restrictive legislation. From dc-cycles-request Mon Dec 4 16:05:02 2000 From: "Kathleen Loerich" To: , "dc cycles" Subject: Re: ABATE of Maryland Response of Delegate Cryor Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 15:57:55 -0500 For those who are interested in contacting Delegate Cryor about prohibiting children as motorcycle passengers, here is some additional information. JEAN B. CRYOR, Republican, District 15, Montgomery County. Lowe House Office Building, Room 226 84 College Ave. Annapolis, MD 21401 - 1991 (301) 858-3090, (410) 841-3090 1-800-492-7122, ext. 3090 (toll free) e-mail: jean_cryor@XXXXXX fax: (301) 858-3850, (410) 841-3850 Kathleen Loerich From dc-cycles-request Mon Dec 4 16:12:20 2000 From: "Perry Coleman" To: chris.weaver@XXXXXX, dc-cycles@XXXXXX Subject: RE: Under 12 Motorcycle Rider Facts: For your letters Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2000 16:12:09 -0500 Chris, You took the worlds right out of my mouth. While those numbers are impressive; without a "weighting factor," such as passenger miles, they are totally meaningless. Perry >From: "Christopher Weaver" >To: >Subject: RE: Under 12 Motorcycle Rider Facts: For your letters >Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 15:35:34 -0800 > >This is a classic example of how statistics can say anything you want them >to say. If you enter into the equation the simple fact that there are far >more cars than motorcycles on the road, those quoted statistics are fairly >meaningless. I'd much rather see stats based on passenger miles or hours. >(i.e. 5 deaths per 10,000 passenger miles) > >Chris Weaver >'98 VTR1000F >www.dccycles.com > > > >-----Original Message----- >The following is from the Maryland State Highway Administration, Office of >Traffic And Safety, Traffic Safety Analysis Division, dated 28 November >2000. > I obtained it today from the MSHA in response to the bill submitted by >Delegate Jean B. Cryor, 11700 Ambleside Drive, Potomac, Maryland 20854. > >Page 11, Occupant information (Passengers, not operators) >1996 Motorcycle Injuries age 0 to 13: 9 injuries (no deaths) > Automobile injuries age 0 to 13: 21,875 injuries (multiple >deaths) > >1997 Motorcycle injuries age 0 to 13: 11 injuries (no deaths) > Automobile injuries age 0 to 13: 20,719 injuries (multiple >deaths) > >1998 Motorcycle injuries age 0 to 13: 10 injuries (no deaths) > Automobile injuries age 0 to 13: 20,326 injuries (multiple >deaths) > >1999 Motorcycle injuries age 0 to 13: 5 injuries (no deaths) > Automobile injuries age 0 to 13: 20,501 injuries (multiple >deaths) > >2000 Motorcycle injuries age 0 to 13: 4 injuries (no deaths - as of 28 >Nov 00) > Automobile injuries age 0 to 13: 11,748 injuries (multiple >deaths) > >Clearly, the exceeding small number of injuries associated by motorcycles >stands in marked contrast to the injuries sustained in cars. Delegate >Cryor's legislation is "Feel Good Legislation" and the article by Dr >Gridlock >is a disservice to the public for not balancing these figures before >advocating restrictive legislation. > _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com From dc-cycles-request Mon Dec 4 16:13:11 2000 From: Gawthrop@XXXXXX Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 16:12:27 EST Subject: Re: Under 12 Motorcycle Rider Facts: For your letters To: chris.weaver@XXXXXX, dc-cycles@XXXXXX --part1_a4.ce5cc89.275d62bb_boundary In a message dated 12/4/00 3:45:36 PM Eastern Standard Time, chris.weaver@XXXXXX writes: > I'd much rather see stats based on passenger miles or hours. > (i.e. 5 deaths per 10,000 passenger miles) > Chris brings up a good point about the significance of statistics. The issue confronting us is that the government is about to take a shot at riders on an issue where there are no fatalities and less than a dozen incidents per year for motorcyclists, as opposed to over 11 thousand per year for cars. As for using stats based on passenger miles or hours, there is no meaningful way to measure the miles or hours. For example, absent a timer, is that 60,000 miles on my motorcycle equal to 1000 hours (assuming 60mph average)? Or is that 60,000 on the first, second or third speedo for that bike, begging the question, what was the mileage on the other speedos. And, finally, since we own multiple bikes, is that mileage and hours cumulative for all the bikes (or just the one, and again, how do we verify the miles and hours if we are the Cop writing the report and the victim is not available.) Again, I'd like to think that riders are not the problem we are being made out to be...in this case. Bill Gawthrop Maryland "I may disagree with what you have to say, but I shall defend, to the death, your right to say it." Voltaire (1694-1778) --part1_a4.ce5cc89.275d62bb_boundary In a message dated 12/4/00 3:45:36 PM Eastern Standard Time,
chris.weaver@XXXXXX writes:


I'd much rather see stats based on passenger miles or hours.
(i.e. 5 deaths per 10,000 passenger miles)

Chris brings up a good point about the significance of statistics.  The issue
confronting us is that the government is about to take a shot at riders on an
issue where there are no fatalities and less than a dozen incidents per year
for motorcyclists, as opposed to over 11 thousand per year for cars.

As for using stats based on passenger miles or hours, there is no meaningful
way to measure the miles or hours. For example, absent a timer, is that
60,000 miles on my motorcycle equal to 1000 hours (assuming 60mph average)?
Or is that 60,000 on the first, second or third speedo for that bike, begging
the question, what was the mileage on the other speedos. And, finally, since
we own multiple bikes, is that mileage and hours cumulative for all the bikes
(or just the one, and again, how do we verify the miles and hours if we are
the Cop writing the report and the victim is not available.)

Again, I'd like to think that riders are not the problem we are being made
out to be...in this case.

Bill Gawthrop
Maryland

"I may disagree with what you have to say, but I shall defend, to the
death, your right to say it."   Voltaire (1694-1778)
--part1_a4.ce5cc89.275d62bb_boundary-- From dc-cycles-request Mon Dec 4 16:18:28 2000 From: "Kathleen Loerich" To: "Christopher Weaver" , Subject: Re: Under 12 Motorcycle Rider Facts: For your letters Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 16:11:21 -0500 What would be a more telling story is how many child passengers actually exists. The answer is probably not many. Why chase a problem legislatively that does not exist? Kathleen Loerich ----- Original Message ----- From: Christopher Weaver To: Sent: Monday, December 04, 2000 18:35 Subject: RE: Under 12 Motorcycle Rider Facts: For your letters > This is a classic example of how statistics can say anything you want them > to say. If you enter into the equation the simple fact that there are far > more cars than motorcycles on the road, those quoted statistics are fairly > meaningless. I'd much rather see stats based on passenger miles or hours. > (i.e. 5 deaths per 10,000 passenger miles) > > Chris Weaver > '98 VTR1000F > www.dccycles.com > > > > -----Original Message----- > The following is from the Maryland State Highway Administration, Office of > Traffic And Safety, Traffic Safety Analysis Division, dated 28 November > 2000. > I obtained it today from the MSHA in response to the bill submitted by > Delegate Jean B. Cryor, 11700 Ambleside Drive, Potomac, Maryland 20854. > > Page 11, Occupant information (Passengers, not operators) > 1996 Motorcycle Injuries age 0 to 13: 9 injuries (no deaths) > Automobile injuries age 0 to 13: 21,875 injuries (multiple deaths) > > 1997 Motorcycle injuries age 0 to 13: 11 injuries (no deaths) > Automobile injuries age 0 to 13: 20,719 injuries (multiple deaths) > > 1998 Motorcycle injuries age 0 to 13: 10 injuries (no deaths) > Automobile injuries age 0 to 13: 20,326 injuries (multiple deaths) > > 1999 Motorcycle injuries age 0 to 13: 5 injuries (no deaths) > Automobile injuries age 0 to 13: 20,501 injuries (multiple deaths) > > 2000 Motorcycle injuries age 0 to 13: 4 injuries (no deaths - as of 28 > Nov 00) > Automobile injuries age 0 to 13: 11,748 injuries (multiple deaths) > > Clearly, the exceeding small number of injuries associated by motorcycles > stands in marked contrast to the injuries sustained in cars. Delegate > Cryor's legislation is "Feel Good Legislation" and the article by Dr > Gridlock > is a disservice to the public for not balancing these figures before > advocating restrictive legislation. > > From dc-cycles-request Mon Dec 4 16:38:41 2000 From: "Jay St. Peter" To: Cc: , Subject: Re: Under 12 Motorcycle Rider Facts: For your letters Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 16:36:34 -0500 X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: dc-cycles@XXXXXX X-Return-Path: jay.stpeter@XXXXXX X-MDRcpt-To: dc-cycles@XXXXXX X-MDRemoteIP: 192.9.200.199 I would tend to think that more children get hurt or die each year falling in bathtubs in the state of MD (although I don't have any supporting statistics). Maybe they should pen a law banning parents from bathing children under a certain age in a tub? I don't think statistics about miles are relevant in this case. The number of children hurt/killed is in the noise level compared even to organized sports. Not quite enough that anyone should be getting excited about it. Although, IMHO the law makes some sense. There are car seat laws and such to protect young children in accidents. I don't really see a problem there. 13 years old sounds a little extreme as I've definitely seen younger kids racing their own motocross bikes. I suspect they can hang on to someone else as well as a 13 year old. On the other hand, I know of some hyper 13 year olds that I'd never let onto the back of my bike. Jay St. Peter From dc-cycles-request Mon Dec 4 16:39:06 2000 From: "Kathleen Loerich" To: "Perry Coleman" , , Subject: Re: Under 12 Motorcycle Rider Facts: For your letters Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 16:31:57 -0500 I think what they provide is perspective. Exposure to accidents for children in automobiles is huge while exposure to accidents for children on motorcycles is miniscule. k.loerich ----- Original Message ----- From: Perry Coleman To: ; Sent: Monday, December 04, 2000 16:12 Subject: RE: Under 12 Motorcycle Rider Facts: For your letters > Chris, > > You took the worlds right out of my mouth. While those numbers are > impressive; without a "weighting factor," such as passenger miles, they are > totally meaningless. > > Perry > > >From: "Christopher Weaver" > >To: > >Subject: RE: Under 12 Motorcycle Rider Facts: For your letters > >Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 15:35:34 -0800 > > > >This is a classic example of how statistics can say anything you want them > >to say. If you enter into the equation the simple fact that there are far > >more cars than motorcycles on the road, those quoted statistics are fairly > >meaningless. I'd much rather see stats based on passenger miles or hours. > >(i.e. 5 deaths per 10,000 passenger miles) > > > >Chris Weaver > >'98 VTR1000F > >www.dccycles.com > > > > > > > >-----Original Message----- > >The following is from the Maryland State Highway Administration, Office of > >Traffic And Safety, Traffic Safety Analysis Division, dated 28 November > >2000. > > I obtained it today from the MSHA in response to the bill submitted by > >Delegate Jean B. Cryor, 11700 Ambleside Drive, Potomac, Maryland 20854. > > > >Page 11, Occupant information (Passengers, not operators) > >1996 Motorcycle Injuries age 0 to 13: 9 injuries (no deaths) > > Automobile injuries age 0 to 13: 21,875 injuries (multiple > >deaths) > > > >1997 Motorcycle injuries age 0 to 13: 11 injuries (no deaths) > > Automobile injuries age 0 to 13: 20,719 injuries (multiple > >deaths) > > > >1998 Motorcycle injuries age 0 to 13: 10 injuries (no deaths) > > Automobile injuries age 0 to 13: 20,326 injuries (multiple > >deaths) > > > >1999 Motorcycle injuries age 0 to 13: 5 injuries (no deaths) > > Automobile injuries age 0 to 13: 20,501 injuries (multiple > >deaths) > > > >2000 Motorcycle injuries age 0 to 13: 4 injuries (no deaths - as of 28 > >Nov 00) > > Automobile injuries age 0 to 13: 11,748 injuries (multiple > >deaths) > > > >Clearly, the exceeding small number of injuries associated by motorcycles > >stands in marked contrast to the injuries sustained in cars. Delegate > >Cryor's legislation is "Feel Good Legislation" and the article by Dr > >Gridlock > >is a disservice to the public for not balancing these figures before > >advocating restrictive legislation. > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________ _________ > Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com > From dc-cycles-request Mon Dec 4 16:47:16 2000 Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 16:47:07 -0500 To: dc-cycles@XXXXXX From: Sean Jordan Subject: Humourous site on List-Flamer types Very nicely done with excellent art work. http://www.flashkit.com/board/warriors/ -- "For man, maximum excitement is the confrontation of death and the skillful defiance of it." -Ernest Becker (1924-1974) Sean Jordan '93 Honda CBR1000F WERA Novice #230 From dc-cycles-request Mon Dec 4 17:38:39 2000 Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 14:38:22 -0800 (PST) From: Matthew Ehlert Subject: Re: Dr. Gridlock at it again... kids on motorcycles To: dc-cycles@XXXXXX --- Razz Man wrote: > > This would CRUSH my 8 year old daughter who LOVES to > ride on the back of my > Motorcycle. She came with me to one of the bike > nights at Car Pool and she > had a blast!! Just tell her that our free society government is concerned about her... and they need to introduce more and more control over its citizens. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From dc-cycles-request Mon Dec 4 17:56:19 2000 Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 14:46:52 -0800 (PST) From: James Hoofnagle To: dc-cycles@XXXXXX Subject: Insurance X-Sender-Ip: 207.172.7.9 Ok, so I find a great deal on a '99 VTR 1000 (SuperHawk 996). It'd be uncomfortable but, I could afford it. Then I call my insurance co. (colonial) They wont even insure it. So, I call progressive. 2000/per year!!?? Wait a second I'm old (kinda'), no tix, no claims! My question to the class is; Is this what I should expect or is this progressive's way of saying "we don't want to insure your skinny white butt either!"? And does anybody have a comany they like for multi sport bike policies? _______________________ They can't hit you, if they can't catch you. James E-TKT _______________________________________________________ Tired of slow Internet? Get @Home Broadband Internet http://www.home.com/xinbox/signup.html From dc-cycles-request Mon Dec 4 18:17:41 2000 Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2000 18:14:02 -0500 From: Bill Huson To: James Hoofnagle CC: dc-cycles@XXXXXX Subject: Re: Insurance I'd say progressive doesn't want to sell insurance. Of course, it is possible that the VTR has a very high IGR number. Meaning they are involved in thefts and accidents a lot more than a boring cruiser type. I pay 300+ for my scoot, full coverage and it's worth a few more bucks than a VTR. Methinks you better shop around or get out the Astro-Glide and bend ovah... Bill James Hoofnagle wrote: > Ok, so I find a great deal on a '99 VTR 1000 (SuperHawk 996). It'd be > uncomfortable but, I could afford it. Then I call my insurance co. > (colonial) They wont even insure it. So, I call progressive. 2000/per > year!!?? Wait a second I'm old (kinda'), no tix, no claims! > My question to the class is; Is this what I should expect or is this > progressive's way of saying "we don't want to insure your skinny white butt > either!"? And does anybody have a comany they like for multi sport bike > policies? > _______________________ > They can't hit you, > if they can't catch you. > > James > E-TKT > > _______________________________________________________ > Tired of slow Internet? Get @Home Broadband Internet > http://www.home.com/xinbox/signup.html From dc-cycles-request Mon Dec 4 18:52:28 2000 From: "Todd Peer" To: Cc: "AA DC-Cycles" Subject: RE: Fastlane vs. Mailorder Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 18:49:19 -0500 I think that was KowaTools, and they are NO longer on sale. T > -----Original Message----- > From: daniel_ex250@XXXXXX [mailto:daniel_ex250@XXXXXX] > Sent: Monday, December 04, 2000 12:20 PM > To: Todd Peer > Cc: AA DC-Cycles > Subject: Re: Fastlane vs. Mailorder > > > Speaking of stands.. does anyone have that link where you can get both > front and rear stands, on sale, for around $127 ? They weren't > pitbulls, but still, they were stands. > > Danny > > > From dc-cycles-request Mon Dec 4 19:21:32 2000 From: "Perry Coleman" To: bhuson@XXXXXX Cc: dc-cycles@XXXXXX Subject: Re: Insurance Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2000 19:21:17 -0500 Bill, > >[snip]... get out the Astro-Glide and bend ovah... > Is that the new, for 2001, Harley? ;^) Perry _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com From dc-cycles-request Mon Dec 4 20:19:29 2000 From: "Smith, Steven" To: "'dc-cycles@XXXXXX'" Subject: RE: Dr. Gridlock at it again... kids on motorcycles + ABATE of Ma ryland Response of Delegate Cryor Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 20:20:14 -0500 > -----Original Message-----From: "Louis F. Caplan"----- > > Dr. Gridlock finally did a follow-up column to his column about children on > motorcycles. > > http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A20073-2000Dec3.html > > Despite having a few letters from people who talked about using the criteria of > having the feet reach the footpegs, and others who talked about the positive > experience of taking their children/grandchildren for a ride, Dr. Gridlock > threw his support behind MD Delegate Jean Cryor (R-Montgomery) who pre-filed a > bill for the 2001 legislative session that would prohibit a child under the age > of 12 from riding on the back of a motorcycle. > > snip > __________________________________________________ > From: Mina Sandusky > > > b. Doesn't the Republican Party contend that a limited government > > should defer to the judgment of an educated people? > > Right. That's why they're against a womans right to choose abortion. THE CONTENT OF THE FOLLOWING POST IS JUST EXACTLY WHAT YOU HAVE INFERRED IT'S GOING TO BE FROM READING THE SNIPPAGES ABOVE. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED. When will politicians learn that feelings of outrage or indignation cannot be the basis of social policy in a free republic? Kids, who are too small to wear proper protective clothing, riding on the backs of motorcycles sometimes get killed in accidents. Sometimes kids are killed without the possibility of survival in the third trimester of gestation, if their mothers wish to have a late abortion. Some folks claims they have a right to indulge in a behavior that results in the death of kids. Last time I checked, the social contract guarantees each individual's right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness while it merely implies the necessity of protecting each individual from the irresponsible behavior of another. Republicans as a group aren't "against a womans (sic) right to choose abortion" any more than Democrats are in favor of it. They all know a certain amount of gratuitous demagoguery is necessary to garner the support of agendized, selfish, shallow-thinking voters. I don't want kids to be killed under any avoidable circumstances. Some accidents are as unavoidable as some abortions. It's the circumstances created by the responsible adults that cause innocent kids to suffer. Life is complicated and sometimes people die. My feelings on the subject should not form the basis of social policy. If you think your feelings are more righteous than mine -- you have my sympathy. Crash Peoples Republic of Alexandria AMA 572649, MARRC 2567, RAT 79802 1998 T595 Daytona, call her "Boudicca" From dc-cycles-request Mon Dec 4 23:22:18 2000 From: "Todd Peer" To: "AA DC-Cycles" Subject: ABATE of Maryland Response of Delegate Cryor Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 23:17:28 -0500 From: Mina Sandusky To: "'dc-cycles@XXXXXX'" Subject: RE: ABATE of Maryland Response of Delegate Cryor Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 15:02:04 -0500 > b. Doesn't the Republican Party contend that a limited government >should defer to the judgment of an educated people? Right. That's why they're against a womans right to choose abortion. Mina Sandusky ------------------------------------------------------ Wrong! It's not that they are against a womans right. They never believed you had one to begin with. In any case (b.) is just another Republicratic ideal platform grab to be just like Libertarians. Once again demonstrates a complete lack of imagination and originality. Don't ever trust those Demopublicans! :-) Todd Peer (Springfield, VA) From dc-cycles-request Mon Dec 4 23:30:28 2000 From: "Todd Peer" To: "AA DC-Cycles" Subject: Under 12 Motorcycle Rider Facts: For your letters Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 23:27:33 -0500 From: "Perry Coleman" To: chris.weaver@XXXXXX, dc-cycles@XXXXXX Subject: RE: Under 12 Motorcycle Rider Facts: For your letters Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2000 16:12:09 -0500 FILETIME=[DCF48070:01C05E36] Chris, You took the worlds right out of my mouth. While those numbers are impressive; without a "weighting factor," such as passenger miles, they are totally meaningless. Perry ----------------------------------------------------- Hmmmm? Zero deaths in all cases (population 39 over the time span discussed). Not sure how passenger miles would figure, assuming we are talking about just motorcycle passengers. Compared to just the year 2000 for automobiles, the total number of injuries for passengers 0 (zero?) to 13 on motorcycles for all years is rather insignificant, .003%. Then .... ----------------------------- What would be a more telling story is how many child passengers actually exists. The answer is probably not many. Why chase a problem legislatively that does not exist? Kathleen Loerich ----------------------------- I believe this is the actual point. Todd Peer (Springfield, VA) From dc-cycles-request Mon Dec 4 23:40:40 2000 From: "Todd Peer" To: "AA DC-Cycles" Subject: Insurance :VTR Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 23:37:42 -0500 Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 14:46:52 -0800 (PST) From: James Hoofnagle To: dc-cycles@XXXXXX Subject: Insurance X-Sender-Ip: 207.172.7.9 Ok, so I find a great deal on a '99 VTR 1000 (SuperHawk 996). It'd be uncomfortable but, I could afford it. Then I call my insurance co. (colonial) They wont even insure it. So, I call progressive. 2000/per year!!?? Wait a second I'm old (kinda'), no tix, no claims! My question to the class is; Is this what I should expect or is this progressive's way of saying "we don't want to insure your skinny white butt either!"? And does anybody have a comany they like for multi sport bike policies? _______________________ Keep calling around James. I called my insco (Markel/Bikeline) three times and got three different answers: $1200, $850, $215. I took the $215 ;-) Todd Peer (Springfield, VA) <----------------------------------------> * '91 ST1100, '98 VTR From dc-cycles-request Tue Dec 5 08:55:25 2000 Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 07:48:58 -0600 From: "George Cole" To: "<" Subject: VIR vs Pocono Hey folks, I am planning on going to Keith Code's school this spring either at VIR or Pocono. Any recommendations or reasons why I should chose either racetrack? This would be my fist time on a race course. Thanks George Cole 00 VFR From dc-cycles-request Tue Dec 5 09:16:02 2000 Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 09:16:12 -0500 From: "Chris Norloff" To: CC: Subject: Re: Under 12 Motorcycle Rider Facts: For your letters Thanks for the facts, Bill. I appreciate your taking the time. Do you know where we can see the text of Cryor's pre-filed bill? The regular web site has only the 2000 bills. I'm curious if she ignores the existing laws requiring handholds and feet on pegs, and if she's ignoring sidecars, trikes, and other 3-wheelers. thanks, Chris Norloff ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: Gawthrop@XXXXXX Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 15:06:22 EST >The following is from the Maryland State Highway Administration, Office of >Traffic And Safety, Traffic Safety Analysis Division, dated 28 November 2000. > I obtained it today from the MSHA in response to the bill submitted by >Delegate Jean B. Cryor, 11700 Ambleside Drive, Potomac, Maryland 20854. > >Page 11, Occupant information (Passengers, not operators) >1996 Motorcycle Injuries age 0 to 13: 9 injuries (no deaths) > Automobile injuries age 0 to 13: 21,875 injuries (multiple deaths) > >1997 Motorcycle injuries age 0 to 13: 11 injuries (no deaths) > Automobile injuries age 0 to 13: 20,719 injuries (multiple deaths) > >1998 Motorcycle injuries age 0 to 13: 10 injuries (no deaths) > Automobile injuries age 0 to 13: 20,326 injuries (multiple deaths) > >1999 Motorcycle injuries age 0 to 13: 5 injuries (no deaths) > Automobile injuries age 0 to 13: 20,501 injuries (multiple deaths) > >2000 Motorcycle injuries age 0 to 13: 4 injuries (no deaths - as of 28 >Nov 00) > Automobile injuries age 0 to 13: 11,748 injuries (multiple deaths) > >Clearly, the exceeding small number of injuries associated by motorcycles >stands in marked contrast to the injuries sustained in cars. Delegate >Cryor's legislation is "Feel Good Legislation" and the article by Dr Gridlock >is a disservice to the public for not balancing these figures before >advocating restrictive legislation. > >You have the Delegate's home address. Please feel free to send information >copies to Dr Gridlock at drgridlock@XXXXXX > >Protect your right to decide about your family. > > > >Bill Gawthrop >Maryland > >"I may disagree with what you have to say, but I shall defend, to the >death, your right to say it." Voltaire (1694-1778) > > > From dc-cycles-request Tue Dec 5 10:14:19 2000 Date: 5 Dec 2000 07:14:07 -0800 To: George.Cole@XXXXXX From: LAURA GRANATO Cc: dc-cycles@XXXXXX Subject: Re: VIR vs Pocono On Tue, 05 December 2000, "George Cole" wrote: Hi George: Brian would be best at answering this question, but I know that we're definitely doing Pocono. Brian has taken his school at both tracks, and he feels that for learning purposes, Pocono is a better track. VIR is a very technical track if you haven't seen it, and I know that for my first time at Keith code's school, which I'm taking this year too, I don't want to be at VIR!!! so pocono it is. Laura > > Hey folks, > > I am planning on going to Keith Code's school this spring either at VIR or Pocono. Any recommendations or reasons why I should chose either racetrack? > > This would be my fist time on a race course. > > Thanks > > George Cole > 00 VFR ________________________________________________ PeoplePC: It's for people. And it's just smart. http://www.peoplepc.com From dc-cycles-request Tue Dec 5 10:21:27 2000 From: "Kathleen Loerich" To: , Cc: Subject: Re: Under 12 Motorcycle Rider Facts: For your letters Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 10:14:17 -0500 The toll free number for Legislative Services is (800) 492-7122. The number for the legislative services library is 1-410-946-5400. Legislative services doesn't have copies of pre-filed bills yet. The person there said to try back around December 15. I just called Jean Cryor's office and asked for a copy. They said that they would call me back. I hate to start playing cat-and-mouse with folks even before the session begins. Oh well... OBTW, I sent e-mail to Jean Cryor's office yesterday and the aide who answered the phone remembered my name. So I wonder what's going on now. I followed the email with a hardcopy letter that will go out today. Kathleen Loerich ----- Original Message ----- From: Chris Norloff To: Cc: Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 09:16 Subject: Re: Under 12 Motorcycle Rider Facts: For your letters > Thanks for the facts, Bill. I appreciate your taking the time. > > Do you know where we can see the text of Cryor's pre-filed bill? The regular web site has only the 2000 bills. > > I'm curious if she ignores the existing laws requiring handholds and feet on pegs, and if she's ignoring sidecars, trikes, and other 3-wheelers. > > thanks, > Chris Norloff > > ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- > From: Gawthrop@XXXXXX > Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 15:06:22 EST > > >The following is from the Maryland State Highway Administration, Office of > >Traffic And Safety, Traffic Safety Analysis Division, dated 28 November 2000. > > I obtained it today from the MSHA in response to the bill submitted by > >Delegate Jean B. Cryor, 11700 Ambleside Drive, Potomac, Maryland 20854. > > > >Page 11, Occupant information (Passengers, not operators) > >1996 Motorcycle Injuries age 0 to 13: 9 injuries (no deaths) > > Automobile injuries age 0 to 13: 21,875 injuries (multiple deaths) > > > >1997 Motorcycle injuries age 0 to 13: 11 injuries (no deaths) > > Automobile injuries age 0 to 13: 20,719 injuries (multiple deaths) > > > >1998 Motorcycle injuries age 0 to 13: 10 injuries (no deaths) > > Automobile injuries age 0 to 13: 20,326 injuries (multiple deaths) > > > >1999 Motorcycle injuries age 0 to 13: 5 injuries (no deaths) > > Automobile injuries age 0 to 13: 20,501 injuries (multiple deaths) > > > >2000 Motorcycle injuries age 0 to 13: 4 injuries (no deaths - as of 28 > >Nov 00) > > Automobile injuries age 0 to 13: 11,748 injuries (multiple deaths) > > > >Clearly, the exceeding small number of injuries associated by motorcycles > >stands in marked contrast to the injuries sustained in cars. Delegate > >Cryor's legislation is "Feel Good Legislation" and the article by Dr Gridlock > >is a disservice to the public for not balancing these figures before > >advocating restrictive legislation. > > > >You have the Delegate's home address. Please feel free to send information > >copies to Dr Gridlock at drgridlock@XXXXXX > > > >Protect your right to decide about your family. > > > > > > > >Bill Gawthrop > >Maryland > > > >"I may disagree with what you have to say, but I shall defend, to the > >death, your right to say it." Voltaire (1694-1778) > > > > > > > From dc-cycles-request Tue Dec 5 10:30:16 2000 Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 10:30:02 EST From: HondaF4Lover@XXXXXX Subject: Off-Topic (sort of).....Goodbye To: Hey listers, Just wanted to let you know two things. First is this is your last chance to buy my F4! :o) I have until Thursday to sell it. After that, I will be saying bye-bye to my lovely Bee. The second thing is that I am deleting this screen name. For those of you that know me well, you already know my new screen name and e-mail address. For those of you that don't, you will see my new identity in new posts very soon. Take care and thanks for listening to the sort of off-topic post. :o) Jess From dc-cycles-request Tue Dec 5 10:43:45 2000 Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 09:37:50 -0600 From: "George Cole" To: Cc: Subject: Re: VIR vs Pocono Thanks for the input Laura, Hmm, So far 1 vote for VIR and 1 for Pocono. Right now I am leaning to VIR since I like a challenge of a technical layout. Anyone else have opinions? George Cole >>> LAURA GRANATO 12/05/00 10:14AM >>> On Tue, 05 December 2000, "George Cole" wrote: Hi George: Brian would be best at answering this question, but I know that we're definitely doing Pocono. Brian has taken his school at both tracks, and he feels that for learning purposes, Pocono is a better track. VIR is a very technical track if you haven't seen it, and I know that for my first time at Keith code's school, which I'm taking this year too, I don't want to be at VIR!!! so pocono it is. Laura > > Hey folks, > > I am planning on going to Keith Code's school this spring either at VIR or Pocono. Any recommendations or reasons why I should chose either racetrack? > > This would be my fist time on a race course. > > Thanks > > George Cole > 00 VFR ________________________________________________ PeoplePC: It's for people. And it's just smart. http://www.peoplepc.com From dc-cycles-request Tue Dec 5 11:03:21 2000 From: "Kathleen Loerich" To: "Kathleen Loerich" , , Cc: Subject: Children on motorcycles - Latest and greatest information from Jean Cryor's office... Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 10:56:05 -0500 Latest and greatest information from Jean Cryor's office... The aide called me back just a few minutes ago. She said that there is not a bill and she cannot send me a copy of it. I was told that the bill was being drafted and when it came back it was not satisfactory. The bill, in fact, was not pre-filed just a notion that something 'ought' to be done about a non-problem. The aide did not know if the bill would be rewritten and filed later. She said that the Delegate would decide about that later. I would keep up the pressure on Jean Cryor's office if you are so inclined. I was told that there was a lot of controversy about this. I replied that it was not likely to stop. I told the aide that motorcycle riders were opposed to this bill but 'others' were not. I asked why the beliefs of people who do not ride are more important than those who do. No answer. The conversation was cordial and short. I expect I'll call back later to see what happens. Kathleen Loerich From dc-cycles-request Tue Dec 5 11:09:22 2000 To: dc-cycles@XXXXXX Subject: CLASS classes From: bergman@XXXXXX Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 11:09:05 -0500 An alternative to Keith Code (ask me why I won't attend another Keith Code class--but off the list please) is Reg Pridmore's CLASS (http://www.classrides.com). "Local" track dates are: June Sat 23 Rausch Creek Harrisburg, PA $360 June Sun 24 Rausch Creek Harrisburg, PA $360 June Mon 25 Rausch Creek Harrisburg, PA $360 H S T A D A Y! July Mon 9 Mid Ohio Lexington, OH $360 July Tue 10 Mid Ohio Lexington, OH $360 July Mon 16 Virginia Int'l Alton, VA $360 July Tue 17 Virginia Int'l Alton, VA $360 July Mon 30 Road Atlanta Braselton, GA $360 July Tue 31 Road Atlanta Braselton, GA $360 Hmmm....decisions, decisions. What to get myself for the holidays? ---- Mark Bergman Biker, IATSE #1 Stagehand, Rock Climber, Unix mechanic '94 Yamaha GTS1000A bergman@XXXXXX http://pgpkeys.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=bergman@XXXXXX I want a newsgroup with a infinite S/N ratio! Now taking CFV on: rec.motorcycles.stagehands.pet-bird-owners.pinballers.unix-supporters 5+ So Far--Want to join? Check out: http://www.panix.com/~bergman From dc-cycles-request Tue Dec 5 11:12:01 2000 From: Danny Thompson To: "Dc-Cycles (E-mail)" Subject: RE: VIR vs Pocono Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 11:12:36 -0500 Encoding: 29 TEXT Without a doubt, go to VIR. Pocono has no elevation changes, is not as pretty and is really a tri-oval road course with infield track laid out. VIR has wonderful elevation changes, is beautiful, has great facilities and is designed as a roadrace course. Plus Pocono is established, we need to support VIR whenever possible so that it will continue to develop and grow and bring more and more racing nearby. JMO Danny #903 Novice (WERA, CCS) '00 SV www.onewayracing.org Proudly Sponsored by: Blalock Cycle www.blalockcycle.com, Shen Valley Trailers www.shenvalleywarrenton.com On Tuesday, December 05, 2000 8:49 AM, George Cole [SMTP:George.Cole@XXXXXX] wrote: > Hey folks, > > I am planning on going to Keith Code's school this spring either at VIR or > Pocono. Any recommendations or reasons why I should chose either racetrack? > > This would be my fist time on a race course. > > Thanks > > George Cole > 00 VFR From dc-cycles-request Tue Dec 5 11:30:06 2000 From: Brian Roach To: "George Cole" , Subject: Re: VIR vs Pocono Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 11:30:59 -0500 Cc: On Tue, 05 Dec 2000, George Cole wrote: > Thanks for the input Laura, > > Hmm, > > So far 1 vote for VIR and 1 for Pocono. Right now I am leaning to VIR since > I like a challenge of a technical layout. The south course at VIR is annoying. 70% of the turns are off-camber. Add to this that 50% of those are decreasing radius and you end up with a course that will suck you in and spit you off your bike if you make one mistake. You will learn less, and probably crash, risking having to sit out the rest of your class. When we went down there, almost everyone from DC-Cycles (but one guy I think?) crashed. Luckily, Code's people were pretty good about making some judgement calls due to the track layout and letting people continue. Yes, that would mean I crashed as well. During an "extra" session after the class on Friday they let a bunch of the real idiots out with no rules except we weren't supposed to do wheelies... Never let a bunch of road-racers out on a track on rented bikes :) In one of the aforementioned decreasing radius, off-camber turns I managed to drag the side of the bike until I managed to lever the bike off the ground. Oops. Too much speed, got sucked in. Also, while there is merit to learning how to deal with off-camber, decreasing radius turns... they simply don't occur that often on the street OR on a racetrack. A "normal" race course (The south course was made to be a training course) you might have one off-camber, and *maybe* two decreasing radius if it's a big track. Spedning all day trying to navigate 6 or 7 of these things takes away from time you could be spending on learning how to corner a bike in what you'll usually find - constant and increasing radius turns. Pocono, on the other hand, is an excellent track for learning. It's fairly flat, has nice pavement, and a variety of turn types. Distance to both places is about the same (It's actually a hair shorter drive to poccono I think). Anyway... Laura and I will be going to the Poccono one (hopefully, I'm going to call them today - the classes fill up *quick*), both days. This means I'll have two more spots available in my trailer to haul bikes... first come first serve to DC-Cycles listers who are going to take the class. - Roach From dc-cycles-request Tue Dec 5 11:53:29 2000 Date: 5 Dec 2000 08:53:11 -0800 To: George.Cole@XXXXXX From: LAURA GRANATO Cc: dc-cycles@XXXXXX Subject: Re: VIR vs Pocono On Tue, 05 December 2000, "George Cole" wrote: > I would like to make one other point, if you don't mind. Technical is good, yes...but for learning, and especially if it's your first time on the track. My first time on the track was track day at summit. Boy...it's a hell of a lot different than being on the street. My first time on my new race bike, and taking a class where I'm going to learn, I'd rather be able to focus on the track and not worrying about all of the technical stuff. I want to eventually be able to deal with the technical stuff, but I think when i'm learning, the less I have to focus on to learn, the better I'll be and more I'll learn. LAG > Thanks for the input Laura, > > Hmm, > > So far 1 vote for VIR and 1 for Pocono. Right now I am leaning to VIR since I like a challenge of a technical layout. > > Anyone else have opinions? > > George Cole > > > > >>> LAURA GRANATO 12/05/00 10:14AM >>> > On Tue, 05 December 2000, "George Cole" wrote: > > Hi George: Brian would be best at answering this question, but I know that we're definitely doing Pocono. Brian has taken his school at both tracks, and he feels that for learning purposes, Pocono is a better track. VIR is a very technical track if you haven't seen it, and I know that for my first time at Keith code's school, which I'm taking this year too, I don't want to be at VIR!!! so pocono it is. > > Laura > > > > Hey folks, > > > > I am planning on going to Keith Code's school this spring either at VIR or Pocono. Any recommendations or reasons why I should chose either racetrack? > > > > This would be my fist time on a race course. > > > > Thanks > > > > George Cole > > 00 VFR > > > ________________________________________________ > PeoplePC: It's for people. And it's just smart. > http://www.peoplepc.com ________________________________________________ PeoplePC: It's for people. And it's just smart. http://www.peoplepc.com From dc-cycles-request Tue Dec 5 12:09:18 2000 Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 10:58:17 -0600 From: "George Cole" To: , Cc: Subject: Re: VIR vs Pocono Thanks Bryan, Excellent response, just what I was looking for, now maybe I am leaning back towards Pocono. This sounds like it would be probably more fun since I will have more time to focus on Technique and form. But they don't let you do wheelies :o( ? George >>> Brian Roach 12/05/00 11:30AM >>> wrote: The south course at VIR is annoying. 70% of the turns are off-camber. Add to this that 50% of those are decreasing radius and you end up with a course that will suck you in and spit you off your bike if you make one mistake. You will learn less, and probably crash, risking having to sit out the rest of your class. When we went down there, almost everyone from DC-Cycles (but one guy I think?) crashed. Luckily, Code's people were pretty good about making some judgement calls due to the track layout and letting people continue. Yes, that would mean I crashed as well. During an "extra" session after the class on Friday they let a bunch of the real idiots out with no rules except we weren't supposed to do wheelies... Never let a bunch of road-racers out on a track on rented bikes :) In one of the aforementioned decreasing radius, off-camber turns I managed to drag the side of the bike until I managed to lever the bike off the ground. Oops. Too much speed, got sucked in. Also, while there is merit to learning how to deal with off-camber, decreasing radius turns... they simply don't occur that often on the street OR on a racetrack. A "normal" race course (The south course was made to be a training course) you might have one off-camber, and *maybe* two decreasing radius if it's a big track. Spedning all day trying to navigate 6 or 7 of these things takes away from time you could be spending on learning how to corner a bike in what you'll usually find - constant and increasing radius turns. Pocono, on the other hand, is an excellent track for learning. It's fairly flat, has nice pavement, and a variety of turn types. Distance to both places is about the same (It's actually a hair shorter drive to poccono I think). Anyway... Laura and I will be going to the Poccono one (hopefully, I'm going to call them today - the classes fill up *quick*), both days. This means I'll have two more spots available in my trailer to haul bikes... first come first serve to DC-Cycles listers who are going to take the class. - Roach From dc-cycles-request Tue Dec 5 12:30:17 2000 From: Brian Roach To: LAURA GRANATO , George.Cole@XXXXXX Subject: Re: VIR vs Pocono Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 12:31:17 -0500 Cc: dc-cycles@XXXXXX As per usual, the best laid plans of mice and men... Poccono is fu